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Need help with strobes.
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Chris S.
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Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mawyatt wrote:
Your shutter period shouldn't matter much IF you are ONLY exposing your subject with the flash and not any ambient. . . .

Mike, you misapprehend the problem Deanimator and I are solving by dropping to a slower shutter speed with cheap RF triggers. Of course this doesn't change the exposure. What it does do is greatly reduce the frequency of images with black, unexposed portions of the frame, due to one of the shutter curtains occluding the sensor during the flash's output.

By dropping to 1/160 second, I found my Yongnuo RF-602 triggers useful for even 1500-shot stacks.

--Chris S.
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Deanimator



Joined: 23 Oct 2012
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Location: Rocky River, Ohio, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mawyatt wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
mawyatt wrote:
Deanimator wrote:
Chris S. wrote:
In my experience, adding RF triggers can make flash timing slightly less precise and repeatable, and dropping to 1/160 second has often been necessary to avoid dark bands. So your experience does not seem surprising.

I can personally attest to this from recent experience.

The combination of Amazon Basics manual flashes and Neewer radio triggers forced me to back off to under 1/200 shutter speeds.


The Neewer radio triggers have caused me lots of concerns, they were very unreliable as were the Yongunos. That's why I switched to the Adorama/Godox system.

I had to resort to using 4 RF triggers and also S1 optical trigger mode to get some consistent results and a reasonable chance of no dropped exposures. The idea was with 4 receivers all receiving the same signal and having optical triggering enable on all the strobes, then one of the 4 strobes would likely correctly decode the RF signal and trigger the other 4 strobe optically. If more than one or all the receivers decoded the signal that worked as well. So I had to resort to 4X redundancy.

One reason for the problems was the Neewer system worked at 433MHz, and uses a much simpler encoding and modulation at lower rates. Even the Yonguno system had problems and it worked at 2.4GHz. The Godox/Adorama system uses a more sophisticated protocol and modulation than either, one reason it's more robust.


Once I backed off to 1/125-1/160 I stopped having problems, at least for the most part.

In any case, I'm thinking of getting a couple of the small Godox/Flashpoint strobes previously mentioned on the forum.


Your shutter period shouldn't matter much IF you are ONLY exposing your subject with the flash and not any ambient. Many of the speedlights I've evaluated, especially the older ones, have relatively long optical outputs near full power (5~6ms), but drop off to much quicker outputs a lower powers.

So if your shutter speed is 1/200 or 1/100 or even 1/10, with a lower power speedlight power setting the image exposure should be the same, since this is the only light exposing the subject.

You can take advantage of this with camera rear curtain synch for the flash, by allowing the shutter to remain open for some time before the flash fires. The idea is to let the camera 1st shutter curtain vibration settle before firing the flash at the end of the shutter period.

I usually try to use as low a power setting as I can, generally between 1/128 and 1/32.

Tomorrow I'm going to try to do the brass piece again using flash to see if the problem was slow shutter speed with the Jansjos.
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
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Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris S. wrote:
mawyatt wrote:
Your shutter period shouldn't matter much IF you are ONLY exposing your subject with the flash and not any ambient. . . .

Mike, you misapprehend the problem Deanimator and I are solving by dropping to a slower shutter speed with cheap RF triggers. Of course this doesn't change the exposure. What it does do is greatly reduce the frequency of images with black, unexposed portions of the frame, due to one of the shutter curtains occluding the sensor during the flash's output.

By dropping to 1/160 second, I found my Yongnuo RF-602 triggers useful for even 1500-shot stacks.

--Chris S.


My 4 Yongnuo YN622Ns would act up often, sometimes misfiring and other times missing a frame. Their speedlights with built-in receivers (YN-565IV I think) were better but still would miss a frame now and then. The Neewer RF stuff was even worse. All these weren't terrible, just annoying, but I don't recall seeing any issues with curtains blocking portions of the sensor, just completely missed frames where the strobes didn't fire, or if they did completely delayed beyond the shutter closing! I normally use 1/200 shutter period, but this was long ago so I can't recall.

Anyway, this is precisely why I went with Adorama/Godox, they seemed to have a better RF protocol and system.

Best,

Mike
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Chris S.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,

mawyatt wrote:
. . . but I don't recall seeing any issues with curtains blocking portions of the sensor. . . .

Please see the first image in this thread: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224757#224757

And your comments about it:
mawyatt wrote:
That's probably what you are seeing with the rear curtain rising.

Simple test is just use a slower shutter and see if this gets rid of the black space.

When very smart people occasionally forget a thing, it makes me feel better, as I so often do so, too!

Cheers,

--Chris S.
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
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Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris S. wrote:
Mike,

mawyatt wrote:
. . . but I don't recall seeing any issues with curtains blocking portions of the sensor. . . .

Please see the first image in this thread: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=224757#224757

And your comments about it:
mawyatt wrote:
That's probably what you are seeing with the rear curtain rising.

Simple test is just use a slower shutter and see if this gets rid of the black space.

When very smart people occasionally forget a thing, it makes me feel better, as I so often do so, too!

Cheers,

--Chris S.


Chris,

I forget lots of things, but didn't forget this! You just misinterpreted my comment, please review again (see "" below).

Think you forgot this comment was about MY stuff misbehaving, not the OP Very Happy "My Yonguno YN622Ns"

I certainly agree with your comment, "When very smart people occasionally forget a thing, it makes me feel better, as I so often do so, too!" Wink

Cheers,

Mike


"My 4 Yongnuo YN622Ns would act up often, sometimes misfiring and other times missing a frame. Their speedlights with built-in receivers (YN-565IV I think) were better but still would miss a frame now and then. The Neewer RF stuff was even worse. All these weren't terrible, just annoying, but I don't recall seeing any issues with curtains blocking portions of the sensor, just completely missed frames where the strobes didn't fire, or if they did completely delayed beyond the shutter closing! I normally use 1/200 shutter period, but this was long ago so I can't recall."
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tevans9129



Joined: 30 Nov 2017
Posts: 129
Location: TN

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Looking for more suggestions Reply with quote

Folks have been so helpful that I thought I would impose on you once more. This is an image that I just did after trying different lighting setups and would like to know what you recommend that would improve the image. I was not trying for composition just the technical aspects. The hotspots are from a small light that was used for setting the start point and I forgot to turn off.

D800e, PB6 170-about 7x, Amscope 4x, 1/200, ISO 100, Controlmynikon, 250 slices, 12 microns, one studio 300 at 1/16 and one at 1/64, Styrofoam cup for diffusion. Stackshot and Zerene.



All suggestions appreciated and feel free to alter.
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mawyatt



Joined: 22 Aug 2013
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Location: Clearwater

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, looks really good to me Very Happy Your AmScope 4X is performing well!

Still trying to figure out how you can get the Adorama Studio 300 to go below 1/16, got me baffled

Wish someone else would chime in with a test.

Cheers,

Mike


Last edited by mawyatt on Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Saul



Joined: 31 Jan 2011
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Location: Naperville, IL USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too small image to see more ...

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Saul
Studio, horizontal and field setups
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tevans9129



Joined: 30 Nov 2017
Posts: 129
Location: TN

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saul wrote:
Too small image to see more ...


Thanks Saul, I am going to try again this evening to see if I can figure out what is causing the problems. The white blotch in the lower center is lichen on the bark.
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Saul



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tevans9129 wrote:
.. what is causing the problems....


These are stacking artifacts (except lichen) . I just pointed what could be fixed with Zerene or PS retouching .

BTW, I like your post, it would be great idea to have one more permanent discussion on the forum index where we could put pictures for critique, even brutal one .... Or some standard check-box - "Request for critique" if possible (if forum software allows to do that). It would allow us to improve our photos. I know, it is little bit risky/sensitive, but ...
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tevans9129



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mawyatt wrote:
Wow, looks really good to me Very Happy Your AmScope 4X is performing well!

Still trying to figure out how you can get the Adorama Studio 300 to go below 1/16, got me baffled

Wish someone else would chime in with a test.

Cheers,

Mike


There are times when ignorance really is bliss Mike. It matters not to me if it should not work just as long as it does I am happy. When I set the Xpro to 1/32, 1/64 or 1/128 the 300's still read 1/16 but there is a definite difference in the exposure. I am going to really be upset if they stop going below 1/16 now that you tell me that they should not do so. Laughing
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tevans9129



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saul wrote:
tevans9129 wrote:
.. what is causing the problems....


These are stacking artifacts (except lichen) . I just pointed what could be fixed with Zerene or PS retouching .

BTW, I like your post, it would be great idea to have one more permanent discussion on the forum index where we could put pictures for critique, even brutal one .... Or some standard check-box - "Request for critique" if possible (if forum software allows to do that). It would allow us to improve our photos. I know, it is little bit risky/sensitive, but ...


I agree Saul, it is a huge help to me when someone points out what they see that could improve the image. Yes, some things are subjective but I admit to being ignorant about this macro stuff and I can learn from trial and error, lots of it, or learn from the knowledge of others, I prefer the latter. With that being said, there is a difference in productive, constructive critisism from just being critical.

Now, what is the best way to avoid, or limit the artifacts, IOW, what should I be aware of?
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Saul



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tevans9129 wrote:
... Now, what is the best way to avoid, or limit the artifacts, IOW, what should I be aware of?


I can tell what I'm doing only - right RAW conversion with lots of the adjustment brush use, afterwards -combining PMax/DMap, retouching, cloning, high frequency retouching, dodging/burning, TKactions, etc...
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mawyatt



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tevans9129 wrote:
mawyatt wrote:
Wow, looks really good to me Very Happy Your AmScope 4X is performing well!

Still trying to figure out how you can get the Adorama Studio 300 to go below 1/16, got me baffled

Wish someone else would chime in with a test.

Cheers,

Mike


There are times when ignorance really is bliss Mike. It matters not to me if it should not work just as long as it does I am happy. When I set the Xpro to 1/32, 1/64 or 1/128 the 300's still read 1/16 but there is a definite difference in the exposure. I am going to really be upset if they stop going below 1/16 now that you tell me that they should not do so. Laughing


Darn it, I may have to buy that Pro Remote just to see if that's what's allowing this, as this is going to drive me crazy Rolling Eyes
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tevans9129



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mawyatt wrote:
tevans9129 wrote:
mawyatt wrote:
Wow, looks really good to me Very Happy Your AmScope 4X is performing well!

Still trying to figure out how you can get the Adorama Studio 300 to go below 1/16, got me baffled

Wish someone else would chime in with a test.

Cheers,

Mike


There are times when ignorance really is bliss Mike. It matters not to me if it should not work just as long as it does I am happy. When I set the Xpro to 1/32, 1/64 or 1/128 the 300's still read 1/16 but there is a definite difference in the exposure. I am going to really be upset if they stop going below 1/16 now that you tell me that they should not do so. Laughing


Darn it, I may have to buy that Pro Remote just to see if that's what's allowing this, as this is going to drive me crazy Rolling Eyes


Could it be possible that Godox made some adjustments in the strobes so they would work with the Xpro and give a little more flexibility?

You know that you want one Mike, you are just trying to justify it.Smile I have the YN622 system and have had really good luck with it when I was only using speedlights, Nikon and Yongnuo, but was getting 3-4% black frames when using it with the 300 strobes. I prefer the layout of this Xpro but the YN was not bad IMO.
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