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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
Posts: 16
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Hi there first post Reply with quote

Just wanted to introduce myself here, i'm relatively new to both macro and micro - as well as having spent a few years doing astrophotography.

Big learning curve again it seems!

I have put together a very basic macro setup, with a tight budget and little experience i can imagine it needs work!

Also, i recently bought a used microscope - a very interesting hobby indeed. In fact my enthusiasm at the moment is leaning slightly toward the microscope, but with the tight spaces and high magnifications involved it wasn't a big leap to trying the micro objectives on the DSLR lens. Especially with some of the mind boggling images found here and elsewhere created using that kind of setup.

Using a finite 4x achro from my leitz microscope attached to a tube apprx 150mm long i took my first real stacked image of a beetle.

Not sure if i'm doing it right but i got a kind-of result, but much room for improvement. Once i check the image guidelines for the forum i'll post it.

Anyway, many thanks for all the info you guys have collected here, i have often looked something up via google and ended up either here or the microbehunters forum.

Regards

Jay


EDIT: just realised this wasn't my first post, i made a couple comments on a thread about mono cameras Razz totally forgot hehe but yeah,otherwise it's effectively an introduction Very Happy
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Pau
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jay, welcome to the forum!
Quote:
Using a finite 4x achro from my leitz microscope attached to a tube apprx 150mm long i took my first real stacked image of a beetle


Although a 4X objective is pretty tolerant if you want to get the nominal magnification you need to put the objective shoulder at 150mm from the sensor if it's a 160 corrected or 152mm if it's 170 corrected. In both cases a Leitz objective is not adequate for direct projection on sensor because it needs complementary corrections done at a Leitz Periplan eyepiece, is better to use it at the microscope with the eyepiece at the optical path, if not you'll get noticeable chromatic aberration outside the image center.
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Last edited by Pau on Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, i had similar thoughts on the corrective eyepieces - so i ended up making the adapter so it allowed the periplan 10x eyepiece to sit just in front of the camera appropriately spaced from the sensor to project an image.

I'm not sure why ppl don't use this method, but there is probably a good reason?

It ended being just like a horizontal microscope, attached to a DSLR.


Apart from the distance needing to fine tuned are there any drawbacks to this approach?


Many thanks for any info.
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



This was the first try at stacking and using a micro objective. I have tried a macro lens a couple times but prefer the magnification from the 4x objective. I probably lost some sharpness and depth of field by only stacking 20 pics, because photoshop on my laptop takes hours to combine a handful of shots. Will look into a better software for the job.

Still quite pleased that the bodged DIY adapter seems to work. Not sure of the image quality though, maybe a plan objective would be better.

I did just realise thanks to your comment Pau that my 4x is in fact 170mm TL so a 150mm distance isn't correct. It didn't occur to me, so i can try the extra 10mm - it will give me something to do while i search for a budget plan objective.

Thank you for the tip. Smile
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, i'm really sorry - straying off topic there.(edit, realised this was macro after all, so ignore this comment, soz)

My main reason for posting/seeking advice on this forum includes photography with the microscope. However i am also really liking macro.

I have a number of questions that i've not really been able fully answer via google and forum searches - obviously i missed a lot, and still yet to find all the info available. Its just the searching and reading is laborious and i struggle to properly absorb some of the info, and as mentioned i miss a lot of the relevant details.

If it's ok i will put the questions in a post - over in the micro section - and if anyone can supply easy answers i would be forever grateful. :p

for now though if i can ask advice related to my macro attempts that would also be much appreciated. Smile


Thanks again.


Last edited by Aenima on Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and welcome.. Almost without looking at a picture, a likely valid criticism of early high macro photography, is that you have movement. Unless you use flash.
This stack doesn't look super sharp, so if you didn't use flash it'll probably be movement. If you did, I think there may be more wrong than 10mm on the tube length at this low magnification. The "correct" eyepiece is about chromatic correction, so it should be sharp, at least in the middle. Often corrections in post processing can be pretty effective for CA.
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChrisR wrote:
Hi and welcome.. Almost without looking at a picture, a likely valid criticism of early high macro photography, is that you have movement. Unless you use flash.
This stack doesn't look super sharp, so if you didn't use flash it'll probably be movement. If you did, I think there may be more wrong than 10mm on the tube length at this low magnification. The "correct" eyepiece is about chromatic correction, so it should be sharp, at least in the middle. Often corrections in post processing can be pretty effective for CA.


Thank you for the reply. Smile

Yes i'm hoping that the problem is related to vibration or some kind of movement. When i tap the DSLR very gently the live view image is all over the place. I've tried flash vs lamp lighting, but didn't see much difference - although saying that i have trouble telling what looks right or wrong visually especially single shots with shallow DOF. I'm just not great at judging image quality by eye, and don't really know what will work until the finished stack is processed.

I assume that vibration is a big deal when using 4x (plus 10x eyepiece) micro objective? (P.S i believe this stack was taken without flash, in live view - using two lamps and a LED strip in the top of the foldaway lightbox)

Considering the flash is the built in one - on the canon 1000D - would i still be better off using it, compared to lamps? Lighting, flash timing and exposure settings are something i've not figured out yet. As well as whether i should keep or remove the periplan EP from within the DIY adapter?

I like the 4x and it has loads of WD but if a different objective is needed i can at least take a look for something more suitable.

Thanks again for the input, and any suggestions for a budget objective appreciated. Smile

Regards.
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Pau
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be interesting and useful to understand if you post your setup with images and more details.

I see another major issue at the image right side: details are blurred and points become cross shaped. It's for sure an optical issue related with coma or astigmatism of the optical system, maybe because you're pushing the objective far of its design point, due to wider coverage (those objectives are designed at the rated magnification to cover a 18-20mm image circle, not to cover a APSC sensor) or to lower magnification.

At the right side there is also some unsharpness but the lack of subjects doens't allow to see if the issue is symmetrical or not. This is important.

To test the system a laser printed paper is a good subject.
Also it's important to determine the actual magnification taking a picture of a ruler along the long direction of the sensor.
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good idea - i will test the lens and adapter on something like a ruler and a piece of printed text (will newspaper do, or will i need to print something specially?)

Meanwhile, here are some pics of my setup.

I 'think' i might have found a problem, the macro rail is stuck to the counter using sticky foam pads - with these holding the camera there is a lot of flex - could this be causing movement even using mirror lock?

I use a 2 sec delay and i think i read somewhere that live view uses mirror lock so i have shot everything while using live view on my 1000D.

Not sure whether this is the best method.


Thank you very much for the feedback and advice.
the periplan occular at the back of the DIY adapter in hopes of giving a corrected image from the 4x leitz obj.
the sellotape looks bad but it holds the objective square on to the light path, i just run out of step-up rings.
and the pic of the camera and rail using sticky foam pads to stick it to the counter top - i should really find a better way to stick it in place.

BTW the out of focus areas could be the edge artifacts or it might be that i stopped taking images to focus=stack after the head of the beetle in order to save time. Or it could be a bit of both. Will try the printed paper test.

THNX Smile


Last edited by Aenima on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Objectives - there are options eg here http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27205 and others. A good $17 4x was discovered recently by Robert OToole, though only fromthe US. Depends whether you want to go "infinite" or not (See the FAQ on how to hook up a microscope objective to a camera).
Maybe you could use tubes on your camera but still use the scope base for focus.
Flash on camera is a bit weak, but any manual flash will do. There are many options.

Do you have a lens areound 135mm - 200mm? Or a zoom which is in that range at the long end?

Ah - just saw your post.
1) the objective has to be centered/lined up properly./
Chinese adapters are pretty cheap (if slow).

If you're not using flash then Live view is your best bet because your camera has "EFSC" (do a search on it).
If using flash then the camera will cycle the mirror, so best then is a dim room, a 2 second exposure, and Rear Curtain flash sync. So the camera has settled by the time the flash goes off.

Sticky pads may not be optimal Smile But any non-flash exposure will pick up any vibrations through the desk. as you say, expanded live view will show it.
Just as an illustration, if you fix camera and subject to a board, then put the board on a feather pillow, you won't get vibrations from the floor(much).

So - lots to think about Very Happy

Those tubes and the back of a shiny objective may/will need flocking, too.
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It does look a bit of a bodge job, but i did use a RMS to 62mm Adapter - a solid one from joys optics, which holds the objective in the right place - the tape is only to hold it from rotating freely. The optics are all central though. Smile


Wow, i had heard about shutter curtains and flashes but never seen it explained as simply as that. A 2sec exposure using rear curtain will give me the flash at the end?(with the right flash setting in the menu) then all i need is to stop light reaching the lens in the rest of the exposure? (a dim room).

Thats definitely something i can try. Thank you.

There are a lot of LOMO objectives on ebay cheaply - i've heard they are usable for macro but they mostly look vintage 'finite' types and i'll lack the corrective occulars.
This is mainly why i'm leaning toward leitz finites, because then i won't need to search out (relatively) expensive CF nikons that don't need correcting, also finites will work on the microscope as well - so it seemed right to use old leitz finites for both macro and micro.... although after this thread i might start rethinking the objective for macro purposes.. Razz

Ps i do have a few lenses for the canon, one is a 70-210mm EFs, and a basic sigma 105mm a nice lens but even with a 36mm extension its low magnification, better suited to nature macro i think? So the 70-210 sounds like it migt work as tube lens.

Thank you for the suggestions ChrisR, and Pau.
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Aenima



Joined: 28 Jun 2017
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought i'd update the post with my next attempt at macro.

Still struggling with the micro side, so in the meantime i resorted to a reversed 18-55mm kit lens. Seems to work ok.

I used lamps and live-view on this longhorn beetle. Canon 1000D, nikon 18-55 kit lens reversed with 52mm ring. Approx 50 frames stacked in Combine Z using cheap manual rail,
and foldaway light box.



Critique welcome, but not mandatory Razz
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, sorry I'm late to this thread.

Regarding your micro setup, as I understand it you have an objective, roughly 150 mm of empty space, a 10X eyepiece, about 50 mm of empty space, and then the camera sensor, with no other lenses.

If that's correct, then you're actually using the eyepiece as a roughly 1:1 transfer lens. That's very different from how it's intended to be used, and the difference may be responsible for a lot of your problems.

Normal eyepieces are designed to produce an output image that is virtual, located at or near infinity, with each point on the subject represented by a bundle of nearly parallel rays.

To finish the job of forming a real image on a sensor, the eyepiece is designed to be used in conjunction with another lens, which takes the bundles of parallel rays coming from the eyepiece and converges them to points on the sensor.

For visual observation, that other lens is the refracting structure of your eye, projecting onto the retina.

In a camera setup, the eyepiece is best used in an "afocal" setup, where a lens mounted on the camera and focused at infinity is used to complete the image formation.

Pau has written much about the afocal approach, for example at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15607 .

The reason I mention all of this is because using the eyepiece like I think you are drags it very far away from its design point and introduces serious aberrations. Fuzziness at image center is probably due to vibration, but I think it's very likely that all or most of your additional problems away from center are caused by using the eyepiece in this way.

If you want to continue using the Leitz objectives and their matching corrective eyepiece, then your adapter should be made to hold the eyepiece in front of another camera lens that is focused at infinity, not in front of the naked sensor.

--Rik

PS. The image in your update on macro looks good. Illumination is well diffused, specular highlights are not blown out, image appears sharp across the whole subject. You're using a different kit lens from anything that I've tried, but my tests have shown good results with 18-55 mm Canon kit lenses. It turns out that with the lenses I've tested, it's even possible to step focus using the lens ring, not moving the camera or subject at all. See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15239 and http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26404 for some discussions.
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mentioned Lomo, and Leitz.
The Lomo 3.7x gets a good press, and doesn't seem to need a corrective eyepiece to give a good result. The price is labile. I wanted one so kept bidding at $20. A couple went well above but then I got one under that price, and have seen more since, in the UK. Worth a try on about 150mm of extension.
I read that Leitz DO need more (and opposite) compensation, but haven't tried one.
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Aenima



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rik, yes you are right, the adapter i made was as you described - just the objective, empty air and eyepiece. What you said makes sense. I might have confused the method a bit hehe :p I think i read somewhere that leitz photo adapters used eyepiece projection (or maybe afocal), but hadn't considered that a lens might be used/needed in there somewhere.
It was an attempt to use the ocular as a projection lens.

I have a couple of smallish manual lenses that might be suitable for the purpose. Although at the moment i'm getting on ok with the 18-55 lens.

Btw, its a 18-55mm DX 1:3.5-5.6G model, kit lens with a nikon d3100 i think. It does have the same focus ring and zoom options as your canon when reversed so i found your post very interesting and will give the focus stacking using the lens ring a try - thank you for linking it. Smile

(it has the opposite aperture problem, needing a bit of paper wedged to keep it open. )

So until i fit a lens into my adapter i'll be trying a few other options.

I still haven't worked out which is best between continuous light+ live view - or - 2 second exposure+ flash. I found the 2sec/ rear curtain flash method really worked wonders! I was trying to use flash alongside ambient light, for some reason lol :p i went by the idea that more light the better - but using flash in a lit room didn't really get the full benefit (of flash). Not sure what i was thinking :p

So ChrisR your Dim room suggestion really helped and made a lot of sense. Thank you.

Now i've learned that the 4x objective was not being used properly, i have a little hope for it still - and considering it cost 20gbp i really would like to make it work. However, i will be searching out a more suitable objective just in case, maybe one i can use by itself. Not sure which way to go on that issue.

So a big thank you to everyone replying here, as well as to the other members contributing to the forum. Really helpful for people trying to wrap their head around this subject.
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