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Microfungi setup - which tube lens?
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Beatsy



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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Location: Malvern, UK

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SallyFungi wrote:
Chris, I have found an Australian supplier (I'm in Australia) for Sorbothane. Is there anything technical that I need to know about what thickness etc to get?

I was going to use a steel plate on top of the Sorbothane and mount the vertical stand to that. Has anyone had experience with whether steel or stone is better, or is it all just about mass?

A question on lighting. If using flash, how dark does the room have to be? Completely black, or can there be some ambient light?

Is there an advantage in using the Studio 300AC over say a Canon Speedlight?


I recently asked similar questions about the base for my horizontal macro rig. I ended up using both. That is, a concrete slab stood on 9 Sorbothane hemispheres with 9 smaller Sorbothane hemispheres on top of that and a 10mm steel plate topping it off. Works really well vibration-wise and I can still magnetically clamp stuff to the steel, which is useful for holding lighting and diffusers etc.

With flash and a sync speed of 1/160th to 1/250th, a bit of ambient light won't register in the image. Take an initial shot without firing the flash to be sure though.
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you start here
https://www.sorbothane.com/how-to-get-help-with-a-material-damping-calculation-1.aspx
and delve into the pdf it leads you to, you'll find that on a paving slab you need numbers of 2" or so pads.

It's almost "just mass". Increasing the mass pushes the resonant/natural frequency way down. In the extreme, if your camera and subject were vibrating at one cycle a minute, you wouldn't care. "As low as possible" is your aim. 100Hz, would be too high. Higher frequencies from eg the ground should be massively attenuated if they're above the natural frequency of the mass. Pun wasn't intended, but it fits.

Metals spring with little damping though, which is why the
Newton's cradle exectutive toy thing works. The Impulse gets through.
If the balls were granite they wouldn't deform elastically without great energy loss so the toy would fail.
The energy transfer could mean you efficiently transfer vibrations between different parts of the rig, eg shutter to subject, as welll as from the gound.

I routinely use a flashgun or two and find I'm using low powers like 1/8th - 1/128th, with reflected light and a table tennis ball diffuser, so rechargeable batteries last well, as I get a few hundred flashes. Mike's semiconductor rig is extra-ordinary!

For small insects the Natural History Museum in London uses a Polystyrene cup diffuser, and a Canon MT24EX.
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beatsy, that's good to know. Thanks. Easy enough to do too. I'll try that.
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Chris. Really useful information. The physics of vibration is fascinating. I see some experiments coming up. I see what you mean about granite vs metal.

I looked into the studio flashes that Mike uses and they do look good, but between the US$169 for shipping to Australia, plus having to deal with converting 110V to 240V, it wasn't looking like an economical option for me. So a standard flash is looking good. If batteries really become a problem, then I'll look at wiring up a 6V car battery to it or something similar.
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Pau
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SallyFungi wrote:
Pau, thanks for the tip about the Canon extension tube. If I were to put the helicoid focusing ring (which doesn't have the electronic contacts) up against the camera, then the extension tube would I still get the same issues?

Great idea about using the Nikon Ni. I just checked, and unfortunately the Mitutoyo wouldn't fit with sample plus working distance.


Sally,
- You're right, but the Canon extension tube is only needed if you plan to use it with Canon EF lenses, if not just use cheap extension tubes and a (chipped or not) adapter at the camera side. I would go for a chipped one as now they are inexpensive and they have few (not very relevant) advantages (exposure simulation in live view doesn't work well without chip, and reporting a fake Canon lens allows full use of the Canon DPP software to correct CA at the image if you use it), that said my adapters are chipless

- This is why in place of the Mitutoyo you must use Nikon (or adapted Olympus) objectives that also are great.
With the microscope you already have a stable stand, the camera, a precision stage and focus mechanism....and if the focus is remotely driven you could also have a precision focus stacking device or you could adapt it

Charles, one of our best microscopists does use that kind of setup
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=144389#144389
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=204214#204214
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mawyatt



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SallyFungi wrote:
Thanks Chris. Really useful information. The physics of vibration is fascinating. I see some experiments coming up. I see what you mean about granite vs metal.

I looked into the studio flashes that Mike uses and they do look good, but between the US$169 for shipping to Australia, plus having to deal with converting 110V to 240V, it wasn't looking like an economical option for me. So a standard flash is looking good. If batteries really become a problem, then I'll look at wiring up a 6V car battery to it or something similar.


The Adoroma strobes mentioned are rebranded Godox SK300 II, which the Godox versions come in various voltages including 240VAC. Same goes for Adorama XPLOR 600 which is a Godox AD600 and Rapid 600 which is a QT600II I believe.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Mike
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike. That helps. I've been able to find a Godox SK300 II on ebay that is 240V and it's A$158, so that looks like an excellent deal.

Pau, I see what you mean now about the microscope setup. I'd still be hesitant to do this for a number reasons. My samples are often quite thick (chunks of wood) and messy. There's no way that I'd like a sopping wet chunk of decaying wood anywhere near this beautiful machine. :-)



I think I'd need to modify it quite a bit to get it to work for macro. Given my workflow, I change between macro and micro regularly throughout the day, I need two different setups.
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Beatsy



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SallyFungi wrote:
...My samples are often quite thick (chunks of wood) and messy. There's no way that I'd like a sopping wet chunk of decaying wood anywhere near this beautiful machine. :-)


Aww c'mon. A quick session with a decent hacksaw and you'd be set for life Very Happy
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing You'll give me nightmares.
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Beatsy



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SallyFungi wrote:
Laughing You'll give me nightmares.


Surprised this site hasn't already done that! The number of microscopes that look like Sid Phillips' toys (ref: Toy Story) is just shocking!

While I'm here being silly - "fungal taxonomist" caught my eye too. Obviously not a career choice for Shirley Conran. She thinks life is too short to stuff a mushroom Very Happy
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have noticed a few Frankenscopes around. Good to see older microscopes being repurposed though.

Beatsy wrote:
While I'm here being silly - "fungal taxonomist" caught my eye too. Obviously not a career choice for Shirley Conran. She thinks life is too short to stuff a mushroom Very Happy


Laughing To be fair, fungal taxonomist is not a very good career choice for anyone.
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does it grow on you? Wink
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Pau
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Joined: 20 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice scope, BTW...I see it bundled with a drawing device...like for old school microscopists (the traditional way for focus stacking Very Happy )

I agree, it's better to have one system for each purpose.
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SallyFungi



Joined: 02 Nov 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Pau. Yes the drawing tube is excellent. Takes a bit of getting used to but even with the really nice optics and DIC combined with focus stacking, I still find that a good drawing in certain situations is better. There are some very fine features that the camera just will not capture.

ChrisR wrote:
Does it grow on you? Wink


Groan Laughing
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