The Perfect Test Target

RobertOToole · Post by **RobertOToole** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:21 pm

mawyatt wrote:2X is a tough spot. The Mitutoyo 2X isn't very good and don't think you can pull the 5X that low.

The Canon 35mm f2.8 Bellows Macro seems to be OK around 2X.

Best,

Mike

Hi Mike,

Mark Goodman, a member here, has a great resource on his site that not everyone knows about. Its a hall of fame list sortable by magnification.

http://coinimaging.com/hall_of_fame.html?

Here are the 2X results, based on a crop sensor camera:

mjkzz · Post by **mjkzz** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:35 pm

thanks Mike.

those dies are bigger, the larger one is at least 5x5 mm. I will try it at 10x.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:38 pm

I imagine that the overall ranking list is still pretty accurate. But the sharpness numbers for lw/ph are probably way too low, because those are for system throughput and they were measured on just a 12 megapixel sensor. I expect that all the top performers were handily outresolving that sensor, and the differences in nominal sharpness are just quibbling about the fine points of contrast.

--Rik

Smokedaddy · Post by **Smokedaddy** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:57 pm

I didn't realize he was an end-user here. I actually looked at his data. I even asked Mark about the canon 35/2.8 bellows lens. Like I told him, I never even knew it existed.

I would love to have a high quality 2x objective for my epi-illuminatino setup but didn't think they existed, so I was looking for something else. I have never used a bellows type setup before, so more reading I suppose. I did try my MPE 65mm this afternoon at 2x but didn't nail the focus. I think this was about a 8 image stack with Zerene.

RobertOToole · Post by **RobertOToole** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:05 pm

Smokedaddy wrote:I didn't realize he was an end-user here. I actually looked at his data. I even asked Mark about the canon 35/2.8 bellows lens. Like I told him, I never even knew it existed. I would love to have a high quality 2x objective but didn't think they existed, so I was looking for something else. I have never used a bellows type setup before, so more reading I suppose. I did try my MPE 65mm this afternoon at 2x but didn't nail the focus. I think this was about a 8 image stack with Zerene.

Nice image James. Good detail.

That must look great at a larger size.

Robert

Smokedaddy · Post by **Smokedaddy** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:11 pm

Thanks, at my current level of abilities and understanding, the epi-illumination on my Optiphot is the best by far. I thought about using my 5x BD objective with epi-illumination, then stacking and stitching all the final images together for a full die image but haven't done something like that before, only Lunar imaging with software for that specifically.

mawyatt · Post by **mawyatt** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:26 am

Robert,

I use Mark's site all the time, it's a great resource for lens evals and references. I got the Canon 35mm Bellows some time ago based on his evaluations & discussions. So my hat's off to Mark for all he's done!!

I know lots of folks don't like scientific methods and prefer the perception evaluations, but the scientific method is the only true standard than can be relied on by all without human bias thrown in. Of course this assumes all parameters are disclosed in the evaluations, and human bias didn't "steer" the results, which I've seen in my field...tweak the test until I get what I predicted or wanted!! Also this begs the inclusion of multiple samples of lenses as Roger C does, since lens variability is always a possibility. However multiple samples are not always possible considering the cost and such.

This is an area I've always been surprised by how much variability in lenses there is, long ago when everything was done by hand I can understand, but today with modern design, assembly and test it just seems this shouldn't be so!! I admit I come for the ultra-precision electronics/semiconductor/IC world, so maybe I'm biased!!

Cheers,

Mike

mawyatt · Post by **mawyatt** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:29 am

Smokedaddy wrote:I didn't realize he was an end-user here. I actually looked at his data. I even asked Mark about the canon 35/2.8 bellows lens. Like I told him, I never even knew it existed. I would love to have a high quality 2x objective for my epi-illuminatino setup but didn't think they existed, so I was looking for something else. I have never used a bellows type setup before, so more reading I suppose. I did try my MPE 65mm this afternoon at 2x but didn't nail the focus. I think this was about a 8 image stack with Zerene.

James,

Mark is how I came to discover the Canon 35mm Bellows Macro as well. Like you I had no idea it existed!!

Great chip image too!!!

Cheers,

Mike

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:37 am

The 35MP also came out on top in my "shootout at 2.4x" from 2013:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=20173

The 95PN beats the 35MP in the center for both sharpness and resolution, but falls apart in the corners by comparison at 2x. The 95PN seems to have been primarily intended for 1/2x use, not so much reversed for 2x. It's not bad, but can be outdone handily by the 35MP. I don't think anything can beat a 95PN at 1/2x.

The talk of epi-illumination makes me think I might need to do axial lighting to solve my uniformity problems. Perhaps I will try pseudo-axial first to see how it goes. I've had reasonable luck with coins with pseudo-axial, but it does cause quite a bit of contrast on the edges of devices.

JH · Post by JH » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:19 am

Smokedaddy wrote: I would love to have a high quality 2x objective for my epi-illuminatino setup but didn't think they existed, so I was looking for something else.

The 35mp is RMS so it is easy to use on a Nikon Optiphot with epi light (I have tried). BUT then the distance between the lens and the sensor will of course give you more magnification than 2x.
-Jörgen

ray_parkhurst · Post by **ray_parkhurst** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:33 am

JH wrote:
Smokedaddy wrote: I would love to have a high quality 2x objective for my epi-illuminatino setup but didn't think they existed, so I was looking for something else.
The 35mp is RMS so it is easy to use on a Nikon Optiphot with epi light (I have tried). BUT then the distance between the lens and the sensor will of course give you more magnification than 2x.
-Jörgen

This is true, and is why my shootout was at 2.4x...I could not push the 35MP down any further due to camera register and minimum bellows distance. I could have done the test with extensions instead of bellows, but I wanted to keep a fixed setup for all lenses. 2.4x was the lowest common denominator, though I did re-test the 3x MM objective at 3x, and the 2x Mitty (on loan from Peter) at their optimum 2x to verify performance.

mawyatt · Post by **mawyatt** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:02 am

ray_parkhurst wrote:The 35MP also came out on top in my "shootout at 2.4x" from 2013:

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=20173

The 95PN beats the 35MP in the center for both sharpness and resolution, but falls apart in the corners by comparison at 2x. The 95PN seems to have been primarily intended for 1/2x use, not so much reversed for 2x. It's not bad, but can be outdone handily by the 35MP. I don't think anything can beat a 95PN at 1/2x.

The talk of epi-illumination makes me think I might need to do axial lighting to solve my uniformity problems. Perhaps I will try pseudo-axial first to see how it goes. I've had reasonable luck with coins with pseudo-axial, but it does cause quite a bit of contrast on the edges of devices.

Ray,

That was/is a really good eval of these lenses, certainly confirms the Canon 35MP as a good option around 2~4X. I found you had already used the PN105 with a 2X teleconverter, so you had already answered that question too!!

Cheers,

Mike

Smokedaddy · Post by **Smokedaddy** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:02 pm

ray_parkhurst wrote:The 35MP also came out on top in my "shootout at 2.4x" from 2013:

Exactly (note the exactly) what is a 35MP actually called. You know, what do you search for if one was interested in buying one.

-JW:

RobertOToole · Post by **RobertOToole** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:05 pm

Smokedaddy wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:The 35MP also came out on top in my "shootout at 2.4x" from 2013:
Exactly (note the exactly) what is a 35MP actually called. You know, what do you search for if one was interested in buying one.

-JW:

Canon Macrophoto Lens 35mm f/2.8 on the box.

These were designed for film and in 1980 they sold for $100 new in stores.

Robert

Smokedaddy · Post by **Smokedaddy** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:31 pm

Thanks, must be a rare pup, I see nothing on eBay, Fredmiranda, etc., even searching turns up very little. I see the Canon EF-S 35mm F2.8 IS STM Macro everywhere. O'well, no big deal.

-JW: