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What lens should I search for to reach 20:1 enlargement ?
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SWIMMASTER



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
Posts: 22
Location: BELGIUM

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:58 am    Post subject: What lens should I search for to reach 20:1 enlargement ? Reply with quote

Hello everybody,

I am very impressed with what I see here on this platform...

Being an experienced photographer (I had a doka and I come from the analogue period and started in 1970), I was searching how to photograph the very little things. After buying a Nikkor Microlens 85 mm, I reached 1:1 enlargment. But after a while, this was not enough and using tubes and bellows didn't satisfy me because the resolution was not improving.
When I used my old enlargmentlens Schneider Componon 50mm connected reversed on the macrolens, I saw a big improvement. I reached 3:1. After buying a enlargment lens Schneider Componon 28 mm, which I also connected reversed on the macrolens, I reached 5:1 enlargment.
I put some pictures I have taken with this combination. They are all focusstacks from about 60 to 90 pictures stacked in Photoshop or Combine.
When I use the Nikkor 55-300mm zoom on 200mm with the Schneider 28 mm revearsed connected, I reach 8:1 but then the resolution is not much better than when I use the macrolens 85 mm with the Schneider 28 mm and crop the picture.

So my search continues...

Which lens should I buy to reach the 20:1 enlargment with a good resolution ?

Is Mitutoya infinity 20x the solution ? I never heard of it but everybody on this forum speaks very high of it. Could I connect this on the macrolens 85 mm and reach 20:1 ?

And what about Carl Zeiss Jena 15 mm f2.3 Mirotar x18-32
Leitz photar 12.5 mm f1.9 x12.5 - 40
Zeiss West Germany Luminar ii 16 mm f 2.5 x10-40
Nikon U20 8mm f1.5
Macro Nikkor 19 mm f 2.8 x15-40

So many questions, I hope to get help to solve my problem.

I insert some pictures, and I asked also help on the forum of Microbeginners, for I would like also to photograph through a microscope but I know nothing about microscopes...







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Beatsy



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 891
Location: Malvern, UK

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 20x Mitutoyo M Plan APO on the end of your Nikkor 55-300 (set at infinity focus, 200mm and wide open) would give you 20x. Not sure if the Nikkor will vignette though. You might be better looking for an old M42 prime as a tube lens instead.

Are you sure you want 20x in "one giant leap". On your D5100 that will give a field of view a little over 1mm wide. You could maybe stretch that to 2mm using a shorter focal length tube lens (say 135mm), but the corners and edges would get soft if you went much lower using a Mitty. Perhaps a 10x Mitty might be better? It's certainly a lot cheaper (new), less than a 3rd of the price, and I suspect you'd find a lot more subjects it's suited to.

Very nice pics BTW
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SWIMMASTER



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
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Location: BELGIUM

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your quick advise and compliments.

Forgive me, I am new here, but what do you mean by

"an old M42 prime as a tube lens"

I think you mean a prime lens with a filter diameter of 42 mm that is
connected to the body (in stead of tubes) where I can put an extra lens on ?


I rather use the Macro 85 mm prime in stead of the 55-300 mm zoom, because the last one, as you said, gives at 200 mm a lot of vignette. When I use it on 300 mm it has no vignette but even the center is too soft (low resolution).

I tried also the Nikkor 200 mm macro prime (of a friend) with the Schneider 28 mm, but this was not better.

It's an interesting suggestion to use a Mitutoya x10. But what about the other lenses I mentionned ?
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johan



Joined: 06 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mr. Swimmaster,

Would it be possible to use lowercase for titles rather than all caps? Caps is like shouting and on Internet forums, it is considered quite rude.

Many thanks,

-Johan
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ChrisR
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Joined: 14 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI
Welcome to the forum!

For above about 5x, it's better to use a microscope objective, because the aperture needs to be large for modern small sensors.

Have a look at the FAQ section,
How to use a microscope objective on a camera

If you use an "infinite" ojective, you will need a lens between about 125mm and 200mm to put it on, as a "tube" lens.
There are good tube lenses under $100.
There are also good objectives under $100, new (See FAQs - "Where can I get objectives") but not at 20x.

At 20x, the Working Distance is a problem. Less than a few mm is diffcult.

The Nikon U20 was designed for a sepecial application, I'm not sure how good it it. (I have one I think Embarassed )
Your other choices
Nikon Mplan 20x NA 0.4 ELWD finite (210mm tube length)
Mitutoyo Mplan Apo 20x NA 0.42 infinite
Olympus eg LMPLFLN but be careful, it's easy to get the wrong Olympus!

You will also have far more to worry about with vibration, and focus movements for stacking .
10x is a good step to try.

(I'll change the titles' capitalisation)

[Keyword twenty]
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SWIMMASTER



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johan wrote:
Hi Mr. Swimmaster,

Would it be possible to use lowercase for titles rather than all caps? Caps is like shouting and on Internet forums, it is considered quite rude.

Many thanks,

-Johan


I am very sorry, I don't want to be rude, I never shout in real life Embarassed
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Beatsy



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SWIMMASTER wrote:
...what do you mean by "an old M42 prime as a tube lens"

Sorry. An M42 lens has a 42mm screw thread at the camera end. You'll need a simple, cheap adapter to attach it to your Nikon. The Mitutoyo objective screws into a filter adapter on the end of the lens (RafCamera on Ebay sells a good selection of filter adapter sizes suitable for the Mitutoyo thread).
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Lou Jost



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are also simple, cheap manual prime lenses that are made for Nikon. The old Nikkor 200mm lenses (the ordinary ones, not the macro ones) are quite good for this task.
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SWIMMASTER



Joined: 01 Apr 2017
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Location: BELGIUM

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou Jost wrote:
There are also simple, cheap manual prime lenses that are made for Nikon. The old Nikkor 200mm lenses (the ordinary ones, not the macro ones) are quite good for this task.


Thank you for your good advice.
I wonder how it comes that the Nikkor macro 200 mm is not better than the normal old Nikkor 200 mm since it is special made for macro ?
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johan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always found macro lenses not so good as a tube lens because macro lenses tend to be recessed far into the metal (serving as a built in hood), and you really want the objective and tube lens close together. Old primes have always worked for me, cheap too, although I must admit I never compared them with proper tube lenses Smile. Of course, Raynox works as well...
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Pau
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add a point to Johan's,
Quote:
I wonder how it comes that the Nikkor macro 200 mm is not better than the normal old Nikkor 200 mm since it is special made for macro ?

to act as tube lens the camera lens must be focused to infinite, normal tele lenses are optimized to infinite focus while not all macros work at its best at infinite (and they are much more expensive).
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SWIMMASTER



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading all this advises, I have bought today an old Nikkor 200 mm f4.
I probably will have it next week.

So I will use it as a tube lens (infinite). Now I have to decide which microscopelens I have to buy to put in front...

But I don't understand that microscope factories make infinite objectives for their microscopes, since the subject is so close...
Maybe, someone can explain this to me ?

But I understand that I have to search now for an "infinite" microscope lens to put in front of this "infinite" Nikkor 200 mm tube lens.

ChrisR mentionned:

1) Nikon Mplan 20x NA 0.4 ELWD finite (210mm tube length).
But with this finite lens I understand that I can not use it on the Nikkor 200 mm(infinite), only on the Nikkor macro 85 mm(=finite) or on bellows ...

2) Mitutoyo Mplan Apo 20x NA 0.42 infinite. This would be all right on the Nikkor 200 mm ?

Are there other choises for the Nikkor 200 mm tube lens ?

And what about Carl Zeiss Jena 15 mm f2.3 Mirotar x18-32
Leitz photar 12.5 mm f1.9 x12.5 - 40
Zeiss West Germany Luminar ii 16 mm f 2.5 x10-40
Nikon U20 8mm f1.5
Macro Nikkor 19 mm f 2.8 x15-40 Are these lenses finite or infinite ?

So I have still a lot to learn, and hope to find the answers here. I am very
happy with the help I got. Thanks every body (and please forgive my poor English)
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Pau
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I don't understand that microscope factories make infinite objectives for their microscopes, since the subject is so close...
Maybe, someone can explain this to me ?


It's about convenience to put intermediate optics between the objective and the eyepiece without inducing spherical aberration and to have more design flexibility. The infinite focus is at the rear side, the focus at the object side is very close.
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/anatomy/infinityintro.html
Quote:
And what about Carl Zeiss Jena 15 mm f2.3 Mirotar x18-32
Leitz photar 12.5 mm f1.9 x12.5 - 40
Zeiss West Germany Luminar ii 16 mm f 2.5 x10-40
Nikon U20 8mm f1.5
Macro Nikkor 19 mm f 2.8 x15-40 Are these lenses finite or infinite ?


They are high magnification macro lenses intended to use on bellows (not originally at the microscope), so finite. At least the Luminar, Photar and Macro Nikkor are very good and have a huge image circle but a microscope objective will beat them resolution wise, at least at magnifications like 20X because the larger NA. And they are expensive.
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SWIMMASTER



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Pau, I begin to understand.

So these 5 lenses are "finite" and I can use them (if I would buy them) only with my Nikkor macro 85 mm, and not with the old Nikkor 200 mm .

What would you suggest for the old Nikkor 200 mm to reach 20:1 ?
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Lou Jost



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several times you've said that you can use finite lenses on your 85mm lens but not your 200mm lens. I think you may be confused about something. Finite microscope lenses don't get put on another lens, neither 85mm nor 200. Infinite lenses need to be put on another lens in order to focus the image onto your sensor, but there is no fundamental difference between putting it on an 85mm lens or a 200mm lens. The 85 will probably vignette (Edit for clarification: the objective's image circle will probably not cover the sensor on an 85mm lens; this isn't really vignetting because it is not the fault of the 85 mm lens blocking anything, it is the fault of the objective for not having a wider exit cone) and will give you much lower than nominal magnification, but it will still give you an image.
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Last edited by Lou Jost on Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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