There was some discussion here
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... c&start=15
about good camera options for microphotography. I think I will be diving into the mirrorless fully-electronic Olympus Micro 4/3 cameras, which accepts perhaps the sharpest consumer lens lineups at any size, with excellent choices from Olympus and Panasonic/Leica, though a good lens in the 150mm to 250mm range is missing; I suppose the Raynox route will work for that. The only good long telephoto prime is the $2500 Oly 300mm f4, but that's a lot of money for a tube lens!
Can anyone confirm that the Oly M5 II electronic shutter can be used with flash? And can the in-camera focus bracketing be used with flash and electronic shutter with a user-adjustable time delay between shots, as the PEN-F can do? (I prefer the weather-sealed M5 II to the PEN-F so I can also use it in the field.)
I also would like a tried-and-true APS body with wide dynamic range and good color. Though I shoot Nikon, I only have one auto lens, all the rest are manual and all can be used on Canon bodies. (I hate Nikon's mirror-flapping and shutter bounce-- I shoot lots of specimens in liquid so vibrations are hard to deal with). What are people's favorite Canon APS bodies (preferably weather-sealed) with fully electronic shutters that can be used with flash, for stacking with a microscope objective on a tube lens? Best 200mm tube lens for this? (Raynox again?)
Thanks, any advice on microphotography-specific issues involving the Canon or Olympus choices would be valuable. I've read most of the manuals but there always seem to be unexpected incompatibilities for the features we need. I have to make these purchases in the next two or three days and have no opportunity to see or try any of these choices before purchase.
New camera recommendations?
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
There is an Olympus Micro 4/3 75-300 zoom. It is not their Pro series but it also is not the lowest priced series either.
http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/lenses/ ... -7-ii.html
I think the Oly M5 mk II meets all your requirements listed above. It's menus let you set it up about any way you want. The focus bracketing does work with the flash, there is a self timer , all of which I have used. The default settings on the self timer are 2 seconds and 12 seconds. I think you can do custom settings too. There is a "super FP" setting for flash but I have not yet figured out what that means. It does have ttl with the flash for Olympus somewhat pricey flash units. There are some aftermarket ones that claim compatibility and there are a couple available for reasonable prices but I haven't tried any of them yet. It has radio remote control of the flash. I don't know if it can control the flash exposure through the lens by remote control. The little flash that comes with the M5 draws it's power from the camera battery. I bought the two piece grip set which holds a second battery , and also a spare battery and the AC power supply (which only goes into the camera throught the almost $300 grip set) so as not to have it run out of steam during stacking.
The tethering software looks great to me. When I bought this camera I have had to be dragged kicking and screaming up into the world of Win Seven Pro from XP Pro including a "newer" laptop to use tethered. I have only hooked it up to make sure they would talk to each other which they indeed do and the live view does not seem to have noticeable delay. Also the Olympus app for the smartphone works great too.
The picture I posted here:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=30904
was actually the first picture I took on the first expedition "out" with the camera.
The Pen F is very tempting because it has 20 % more pixels ( A friend of mine quipped, "wassa matter, 64mp not enough for you??{;o) but I think if you are going to take it into the jungle you would want the well sealed M5 which seems to get good reviews for its sealing. I am told that the Pen does tether with the same software but I don't know whether there is AC power available for it. It does use the same battery unit as the M5.
http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/lenses/ ... -7-ii.html
I think the Oly M5 mk II meets all your requirements listed above. It's menus let you set it up about any way you want. The focus bracketing does work with the flash, there is a self timer , all of which I have used. The default settings on the self timer are 2 seconds and 12 seconds. I think you can do custom settings too. There is a "super FP" setting for flash but I have not yet figured out what that means. It does have ttl with the flash for Olympus somewhat pricey flash units. There are some aftermarket ones that claim compatibility and there are a couple available for reasonable prices but I haven't tried any of them yet. It has radio remote control of the flash. I don't know if it can control the flash exposure through the lens by remote control. The little flash that comes with the M5 draws it's power from the camera battery. I bought the two piece grip set which holds a second battery , and also a spare battery and the AC power supply (which only goes into the camera throught the almost $300 grip set) so as not to have it run out of steam during stacking.
You can set the charge time on the M5 mkII also. You have to look at the firmware update supplement to the manual to see it. The M5 does not do the in camera stacking of eight shots.I think the Pen-F may have a few advantages over the E-M5II in this regard, at least it would seem so from reading the manuals. Both cameras allow you to set a delay time from when you release the shutter until it starts taking the set of multiple exposures. But interestingly, on the Pen-F you can set a "Charge time" delay between each of the 8 shots so if a flash is used it will accommodate the recycle time. This (or any other between shot delay) is not noted in the E-M5II manual. The 8 shots in the sequence are done with the fully electronic shutter in both cameras, which Olympus seems to call "Silent mode".
The tethering software looks great to me. When I bought this camera I have had to be dragged kicking and screaming up into the world of Win Seven Pro from XP Pro including a "newer" laptop to use tethered. I have only hooked it up to make sure they would talk to each other which they indeed do and the live view does not seem to have noticeable delay. Also the Olympus app for the smartphone works great too.
The picture I posted here:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=30904
was actually the first picture I took on the first expedition "out" with the camera.
The Pen F is very tempting because it has 20 % more pixels ( A friend of mine quipped, "wassa matter, 64mp not enough for you??{;o) but I think if you are going to take it into the jungle you would want the well sealed M5 which seems to get good reviews for its sealing. I am told that the Pen does tether with the same software but I don't know whether there is AC power available for it. It does use the same battery unit as the M5.
Thanks for the advice and for confirming that the M5 II behaves as I had hoped. I am sure Olympus will come out with a weather-sealed 20 Mb camera the day after I buy the M5 II, so I wish I could wait a bit, but I can't.
The 75-300 lens seems to perform quite badly at 300m though it is very good at 150mm
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/olym ... view-21689
In my experience the middle and low focal lengths of a long zoom often do not work well with microscope objectives, so I am not sure about this lens. I wonder if someone here has used this one as a tube lens?
The 75-300 lens seems to perform quite badly at 300m though it is very good at 150mm
https://www.ephotozine.com/article/olym ... view-21689
In my experience the middle and low focal lengths of a long zoom often do not work well with microscope objectives, so I am not sure about this lens. I wonder if someone here has used this one as a tube lens?
For the Olympus, looks like there may be a problem with their flashes. They use the camera's own battery. This will wear out the battery very fast in stacking applications when using the flash as a master to trigger slaves. And I think the camera needs to be removed from its tripod or rail to change the battery. Third-party small units could be used in their place but rarely allow manual adjustment to 1/128 power which is what one should use for slaves.
The only flash that uses the camera's own battery is the little fill flash(FL3) that comes with it which is barely larger than a pop up flash which I think it was intended to substitute for.
All the Olympus flashes which are "labeled" for use with the unit have their own batteries. on a budget you can get the FL 300 R for about $125 or so. The R means it can do everything by Radio Control(off camera) with the camera. I don't know if it allows fractiontal setting but it does allow plus and minus exposure setting. I have not seen its' manual. The more powerful FL 600R is about $250 a copy. There are multiple radio control channels available.
There is also an FL 14 which does not have radio control but does meter itself through the lens. It is under $100 and uses two AAA batteries.
There are also off camera cables both from Olympus and the aftermarket at about $55 and $20 respectively.
All the Olympus flashes which are "labeled" for use with the unit have their own batteries. on a budget you can get the FL 300 R for about $125 or so. The R means it can do everything by Radio Control(off camera) with the camera. I don't know if it allows fractiontal setting but it does allow plus and minus exposure setting. I have not seen its' manual. The more powerful FL 600R is about $250 a copy. There are multiple radio control channels available.
There is also an FL 14 which does not have radio control but does meter itself through the lens. It is under $100 and uses two AAA batteries.
There are also off camera cables both from Olympus and the aftermarket at about $55 and $20 respectively.
A couple of days, without a chance to have a play, is tough! I've been vacillating for too long over the many options.
Did you discount the Fuji Xpro2? It appears to have one of the better sensors on APS-C. From review(s) it's lower noise than the D7100 or D7200 (which aren't the same), and the Canon 80D still has a low pass filter.
Friend tells me that flash doesn't fire in Electronic shutter mode, but (as with Canon) a flash trigger/delay shouldn't be hard to put together.
Lack of flip rear screen would be annoying. Other things I still don't have a clue about. There's a reasonable look at it here http://alikgriffin.com/fuji-x-pro-2-review.
Did you discount the Fuji Xpro2? It appears to have one of the better sensors on APS-C. From review(s) it's lower noise than the D7100 or D7200 (which aren't the same), and the Canon 80D still has a low pass filter.
Friend tells me that flash doesn't fire in Electronic shutter mode, but (as with Canon) a flash trigger/delay shouldn't be hard to put together.
Lack of flip rear screen would be annoying. Other things I still don't have a clue about. There's a reasonable look at it here http://alikgriffin.com/fuji-x-pro-2-review.
Chris R
I really like the completely electronic shutter, in-camera focus bracketing, and 40-50 Mp super-resolution of the Olympus cameras. 40 seconds for a 200 shot stack!! I also really like the compactness and optical quality of the micro 4/3 system. So I am a few minutes away from pressing the "Check Out" button at B and H. PEN-F for studio and microscopy, and M5 II for field work. Thanks to everyone who generously helped me decide this.
-
Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Lou,
I have a Pen-F here that I rented for a few days (goes back Monday). I can't address Olympus OM-D E-M5 ii questions directly, but it sounds like (with latest firmware updates) it works very much the same as the Pen-F.
As Gene mentioned, the little FL3 flash (that comes standard with the Pen-F) does use camera body battery. But it is tiny... and you can set it for 1/64th manual power and it can be used very nicely with optically slaved flash units. The camera gives a choice of a "regular" mechanical shutter, "EFSC", and "fully electronic". With mechanical and EFSC you get a flash sync signal up to 1/250 (many EFSC cameras will not provide a flash sync at all in that mode). With the fully electronic shutter you have flash sync as well, but only up to 1/20 second (I may be wrong, but as far as I know it is the only one of the cameras we're looking at that provides any flash capability with a fully electronic shutter). BTW, the EFSC shutter is notably "gentle" even with the mechanical second curtain and re-cocking. The fully electronic shutter is... as my kids used to say... SWEEEET!
After playing with it the first couple of hours I was ready to throw it out the window. There are so many possible settings, and many desired ones are not default or easy to find, and many do not have good descriptive names. There are many deeply tiered menus.](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall")
. There are also some "features" that are not really covered in the manual, and are either discovered by chance or reading a blog post. Be prepared to do a great deal of "menu-diving", instruction PDF reading, and web searching to get things arranged in a manner that fits your style. Fortunately it offers 4 "custom" configuration memory settings so once you get them set to specific scenarios things are better.
There are no Canon bodies with a full electronic shutter. There are only a few cameras (of the ones we are considering) that have this. Some Sony models (FF and APS-C), The Nikon "1" series, some Panasonic and Olympus 4/3, and he Fujifilm X-Pro2 (APS-C).
I also rented the 60mm f2.8 Olympus macro lens (focuses to 1:1). The focus bracketing function (acquiring an image stack) takes some getting used to, but once you become familiar with its idiosyncrasies and usage it is pretty amazing. Very fast, and very quiet. Would be great for outdoor "field" work.
A few minor(?) things. The Pen-F does not have provision for an AC-power adapter.... something I have always used on my bench-top set-ups. The batteries don't last that long. The "OM" models do offer this possibility. When magnifying the rear screen there is a surprising amount around the periphery that can't be magnified (at least I have not yet been able to find a way to do so). The magnification area seems to be limited to only the portion of the frame that has the AF targets. But the focus "peaking" works well out to the edges so that can help somewhat if this becomes a problem. Probably a personal thing, but the camera is pretty small. It seems too easy to accidentally "hit" buttons and change settings when you don't intend to. I suppose you get used to it.
The HI-RES mode has been a bit of a disappointment. I think it is because with the with the 20Mp sensor the pixel density is now so high (300pixels /mm!) that it's usefulness becomes limited because the vast majority of optics will not be able to provide an image to make good use of it. I can see some (minor) improvements in some cases, but not enough to make it worthwhile on a regular basis (IMO). I think it's a useful technique for sensors with much less pixel density.
The "rumors" are that there will be a new "top of the line" OM-D M1 announced in September. But you can spend your entire life waiting for rumored cameras!
I have a Pen-F here that I rented for a few days (goes back Monday). I can't address Olympus OM-D E-M5 ii questions directly, but it sounds like (with latest firmware updates) it works very much the same as the Pen-F.
As Gene mentioned, the little FL3 flash (that comes standard with the Pen-F) does use camera body battery. But it is tiny... and you can set it for 1/64th manual power and it can be used very nicely with optically slaved flash units. The camera gives a choice of a "regular" mechanical shutter, "EFSC", and "fully electronic". With mechanical and EFSC you get a flash sync signal up to 1/250 (many EFSC cameras will not provide a flash sync at all in that mode). With the fully electronic shutter you have flash sync as well, but only up to 1/20 second (I may be wrong, but as far as I know it is the only one of the cameras we're looking at that provides any flash capability with a fully electronic shutter). BTW, the EFSC shutter is notably "gentle" even with the mechanical second curtain and re-cocking. The fully electronic shutter is... as my kids used to say... SWEEEET!
After playing with it the first couple of hours I was ready to throw it out the window. There are so many possible settings, and many desired ones are not default or easy to find, and many do not have good descriptive names. There are many deeply tiered menus.
. There are also some "features" that are not really covered in the manual, and are either discovered by chance or reading a blog post. Be prepared to do a great deal of "menu-diving", instruction PDF reading, and web searching to get things arranged in a manner that fits your style. Fortunately it offers 4 "custom" configuration memory settings so once you get them set to specific scenarios things are better.There are no Canon bodies with a full electronic shutter. There are only a few cameras (of the ones we are considering) that have this. Some Sony models (FF and APS-C), The Nikon "1" series, some Panasonic and Olympus 4/3, and he Fujifilm X-Pro2 (APS-C).
I also rented the 60mm f2.8 Olympus macro lens (focuses to 1:1). The focus bracketing function (acquiring an image stack) takes some getting used to, but once you become familiar with its idiosyncrasies and usage it is pretty amazing. Very fast, and very quiet. Would be great for outdoor "field" work.
A few minor(?) things. The Pen-F does not have provision for an AC-power adapter.... something I have always used on my bench-top set-ups. The batteries don't last that long. The "OM" models do offer this possibility. When magnifying the rear screen there is a surprising amount around the periphery that can't be magnified (at least I have not yet been able to find a way to do so). The magnification area seems to be limited to only the portion of the frame that has the AF targets. But the focus "peaking" works well out to the edges so that can help somewhat if this becomes a problem. Probably a personal thing, but the camera is pretty small. It seems too easy to accidentally "hit" buttons and change settings when you don't intend to. I suppose you get used to it.
The HI-RES mode has been a bit of a disappointment. I think it is because with the with the 20Mp sensor the pixel density is now so high (300pixels /mm!) that it's usefulness becomes limited because the vast majority of optics will not be able to provide an image to make good use of it. I can see some (minor) improvements in some cases, but not enough to make it worthwhile on a regular basis (IMO). I think it's a useful technique for sensors with much less pixel density.
The "rumors" are that there will be a new "top of the line" OM-D M1 announced in September. But you can spend your entire life waiting for rumored cameras!
Charles, many others have also noted the remarkably poor documentation for these cameras. I think I'll be happy with it, though. Thanks for the suggestion of the PEN-F, which I might not have noticed if you hadn't brought it up. I do need the weatherproof M5 II for my jungle work though, as Gene suggested.
Some of the review sites noted, as you did, that the super-resolution feature only gives real improvements with very sharp lenses. But there are some really sharp lenses in this line. The Panasonic/Leica 42.5mm f1.2 and the Oly 75mm f1.7 are staggeringly sharp. So are some of the 20-25mm lenses. This raises the possibility of using one of the wide sharp lenses like the Pana 25mm in reverse in front of the super-sharp Oly 75 to achieve 3x magnification on the sensor, which would put as many pixels under a given subject as a 6x microscope objective on a tube lens on a full-frame sensor, even without super-resolution. That intrigues me very much. And with super-resolution this could get very interesting. After I collect this stuff in the US and come back to Ecuador I will test it and report on the results.
I imagine the super-resolution feature will be most useful in my landscape photography.
Some of the review sites noted, as you did, that the super-resolution feature only gives real improvements with very sharp lenses. But there are some really sharp lenses in this line. The Panasonic/Leica 42.5mm f1.2 and the Oly 75mm f1.7 are staggeringly sharp. So are some of the 20-25mm lenses. This raises the possibility of using one of the wide sharp lenses like the Pana 25mm in reverse in front of the super-sharp Oly 75 to achieve 3x magnification on the sensor, which would put as many pixels under a given subject as a 6x microscope objective on a tube lens on a full-frame sensor, even without super-resolution. That intrigues me very much. And with super-resolution this could get very interesting. After I collect this stuff in the US and come back to Ecuador I will test it and report on the results.
I imagine the super-resolution feature will be most useful in my landscape photography.
-
Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
I have not been able to combine the HI-RES mode with the focus bracketing. I don't think it's possible, but there are so many "undocumented" setting possibilities I can't say definitively that it is not possible.
Yes, the 42.5mm f1.2 and the Oly 75mm f1.7 have universally gathered a reputation as superb lenses.
It would be interesting to shoot some HI-RES shots with those two at about f2.8 to f4. So far I have been unable to try an optic that shows benefits from HI-RES. I tried the 60.2.8 at f5 (infinity distance), but it showed no advantage. Perhaps I'll give it a shot at f2.8 and f4.
Yes, the 42.5mm f1.2 and the Oly 75mm f1.7 have universally gathered a reputation as superb lenses.
It would be interesting to shoot some HI-RES shots with those two at about f2.8 to f4. So far I have been unable to try an optic that shows benefits from HI-RES. I tried the 60.2.8 at f5 (infinity distance), but it showed no advantage. Perhaps I'll give it a shot at f2.8 and f4.
The super-resolution could always be done manually using a Stackshot, if there is no way to do it automatically by automatic focus bracketing.
I'm surprised that the 60mm lens did not show any improvement in super-resolution mode. There are some dramatic test images on the internet, though not with that lens. That lens is supposed to be excellent at f5 from infinity up to at least half life size, then softening as it approaches 1:1.
I'm surprised that the 60mm lens did not show any improvement in super-resolution mode. There are some dramatic test images on the internet, though not with that lens. That lens is supposed to be excellent at f5 from infinity up to at least half life size, then softening as it approaches 1:1.
New camera recommendations?
Charles,
Fujifilm X-T1 and X-T10 (APS-C), I use this last one, also have full electronic shutter.
Herewith a picture made with the X-T10:
Klebelsbergite, Pereta, Toscane, Italia, ex Coll. P. Gatel, Field of view 3mm.
Unfortunately, X-T1 /X-T10 don't have a Super resolution mode and Electronic shutter speed is limited to 1" in manual (this limitation does not apply to the auto speed mode).
Fujifilm X-T1 and X-T10 (APS-C), I use this last one, also have full electronic shutter.
Herewith a picture made with the X-T10:
Klebelsbergite, Pereta, Toscane, Italia, ex Coll. P. Gatel, Field of view 3mm.
Unfortunately, X-T1 /X-T10 don't have a Super resolution mode and Electronic shutter speed is limited to 1" in manual (this limitation does not apply to the auto speed mode).
Regards
Pierre
Pierre