Introductions and looking for advice in getting into MacroP

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 6:42 am

Hello All,

First post so a very quick introduction, My name is Luke, interest in all things fauna and flora and i'm based in the UK, Looking to get into world of macro photography and am in the process of gathering gear.

I have access to some camera gear which we already own (a few primes, mostly telephoto lens as my other half is into bird watching and bird photography) but as we recently upgraded her first camera (Canon 1100D) to a 7D Mk1 I now have a spare body which I would like to have as "my" macro set up.

I'm currently looking to take 1:1 possibly 2:1 predominately flowers, insects, fungi amphibians etc. because of my other half's hobby as a keen birdwatcher (I have an interest but not so much) I'm often out and about in various forests / fields / swamps / rivers and want to use this time to take some macro photography,

Plus I'm actually lucky enough to be going away on holiday to Lesvos in 6 weeks to see lots of birds with my other half and her dad, but theres also stacks of orchids, bugs, butterflies, lizards and snakes out there that I'd love to use my soon to be macro rig on but want to get some practice in before we go.

My current proposed equipment list is *note this will be used for the majority of the time "out in the field" and not indoors:

Body: Canon 1100D / 7D when not in use (already own)
Main lens: see below or Tamron 70-300mm f4/5.6 1:2 Macro (already have from early days)
Flash: need advice
Misc: Raynox DCR-250 (already own)

Ok so after that not so short introduction onto my first questions

firstly I'm virtually ready to pull the trigger on a second hand Canon 100mm 2.8FL series,

Having played with a friends 100mm 2.8 non L series I'm reasonably comfortable with it however feel that the additional IS would be of benefit out in the field? my friend also looking into trading his in for the L series but is midway though upgrading anyhow for the same reason.

I feel the extra focal distance of a 100m compared to the 60mm is worth the extra, one of my other hobbies include keeping marine aquaria and thus will be using this lens to shoot through glass and probably 3-4 inch's of water if i'm photographing the tank) whereas I feel the 180mm is A) probably out of my sensible budget B) probably too prone to shake for someone new to macro.

However given the price between a second or even new Sigma 105mm vs the second hand Canon 100mm L is it justifiable ? I've got 2 DX range sigma lens already (10-20mm and the 150-500mm) and know the build quality on them, both the 105 and the 100mm are internally focusing, both have F/2.8 both offer IS but the canon is around £100 more.

On the other hand I have got budget for this as I have a feeling every time I look at the sigma I will wonder if it should have gone for the L series (plus we ultimately want to start upgrading our other len's to Canon L's starting with the 150-500mm)

(I guess I may have answered my own question there but guess I want a soundboard off someone!)

Secondly...and this is slightly embarrassing but I have virtually zero clue about flash guns or how to use them, given that until now the majority of my photography has been birds its never been required,

I did borrow my friends Sigma EM-140 Flash ring but basically winged it and relied on natural light when I borrowed it for a few weeks.

I have however been drawn a few times to Kurt @ OrionMystery blog and love the use of a tiny 270EXII as outlined here: http://orionmystery.blogspot.co.uk/2012 ... o-rig.html (plus elsewhere) , I appricate this is a very low powered light but love how portable it is and wouldn't mind rigging up 2 but appreciate this may require additional things like wireless receives or twin hotshoe cables,

I prefer the look of insect photography done with single / twin speedlites over a flash ring and after buying ether lens my budget will be rather stretched before I go away so I don't really wish to spend hundreds on flash (but appreciate that lighting in the macro world is also a big deal!) if I can help it.

So to summarise
1) is the Canon 100mm F2.8L worth the extra £100 or so compared to the Sigma 105, my gut is saying yes

2)Advice of flash,

I ultimately want to make a nice compact little field macro rig,

Thank and regards
Luke

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:47 am

I'd go for the Canon L, but I'd bet we'd all have a hard time telling the difference. The Sigmas are very good. I lose track of versions, later is generally better.
I think you'll find it very nice, and with a Raynox 250 on the front, you're good to go a bit closer.

Below 10mm field of view you really would find the depth of field a problem. In static conditions, focus stacking is an answer but in the fild it's hard beyond a few frames hand held.

Flash for macros is all about diffusiuon as you'll have read. I have a 270EXII but don't use it much. There's no manual control. Look at Yongnuo (560...?) and Neewer (which are more compact) guns which seem to do well.
The Yongnuo certainly, will act as a Master or Slave.

Useful for travelling is a cheap clamp/mini tripod. You can do ad-hoc taletop focus stacks, rest on gates, logs etc. They can be flimsy, but with care they work.

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:12 am

ChrisR wrote:I'd go for the Canon L, but I'd bet we'd all have a hard time telling the difference. The Sigmas are very good. I lose track of versions, later is generally better.
I think you'll find it very nice, and with a Raynox 250 on the front, you're good to go a bit closer.

Below 10mm field of view you really would find the depth of field a problem. In static conditions, focus stacking is an answer but in the fild it's hard beyond a few frames hand held.

Flash for macros is all about diffusiuon as you'll have read. I have a 270EXII but don't use it much. There's no manual control. Look at Yongnuo (560...?) and Neewer (which are more compact) guns which seem to do well.
The Yongnuo certainly, will act as a Master or Slave.

Useful for travelling is a cheap clamp/mini tripod. You can do ad-hoc taletop focus stacks, rest on gates, logs etc. They can be flimsy, but with care they work.

Hello Chris,

Thank you for taking the time to reply,

I do actually have some limited experience with stacking thanks to my other hobby but nothing more then a dabble and I will probably do some stacking again at some time but can appreciate the difficulty of doing it in the field "freehand",

In regards to flash what are people's views on 3rd party guns? it seems a very contentious subject some swear by it some dont, admittedly the price is appealing and given that I dont plan on doing this for a living/using flash for anything but this macro setting i certainly will look into it,

What would I be looking at in flash gun's would you suggest? things like strength,features, IR focus? should I look at maybe a pair (budget allowing)

Again I'd like to keep it compact but if i need to get a larger flash then say the 270exII i'm not opposed to it, I'd also need to figure out how i wish to mount it "off camera" but it's kinda difficult without knowing which flash i'm using,

I quite like the idea of using a c clamp or / lens tripod foot and mount it above the lens not below so that i can spin the flash mount parallel to the lens and then angle the flash down with a softbox / defuser or some description.

Finally we will actually be taking a few full size tripod's with us for scopes and my other half's (liz) 7D+150-500mm, plus we have a camera "beanbag" which is surprising versatile but I will also look into potential clamps and alternative stands etc.

Luke.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:41 am

Luke, welcome aboard.

I'm delighted to hear that you've already encountered orionmystery's work. His flash techniques are world class, and he's done a great job of blogging about how to set them up, why they work so well, and what some reasonable alternatives are. Perhaps our most common piece of advice about how to use flash well is to do an internet search on "orionmystery concave diffuser". That will return hits like these (the first five, for when I did the search just now):

http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... pdate.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... ave-d.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... fuser.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... fuser.html
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50190146

Study those, puzzle through the chronological order of posting, think about the setups and the images they produce, and I expect that you'll be getting great results in no time.

--Rik

Pau · Post by **Pau** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:09 am

Luke, welcome aboard!

...whereas I feel the 180mm is ...B) probably too prone to shake for someone new to macro.

In fact at the same magnification this will be about the same (identical about parallel to subject translation movements but a bit worse about rotating ones, if I recall well...)

IS is less useful when magnification increases, but I have not direct experience with IS dedicated macro lenses like the Canon L.

I have a YN 565EX and I easily can recommend it: inexpensive, full compatible with Canon both in automatic and manual modes , wireless functions...Just like a Canon 580EX but at a fraction of the price. You can control it from the 7D menu both wired o wireless
The only very small advantage I've found on original Canon EX units is more accurate color temperature because new units are able to communicate it to the camera but shooting RAW this is pretty irrelevant (well...new Canons have better construction with some water sealing, a nicer hot shoe...but this doesn't take pictures)

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:21 pm

Luke, welcome aboard.

I'm delighted to hear that you've already encountered orionmystery's work. His flash techniques are world class, and he's done a great job of blogging about how to set them up, why they work so well, and what some reasonable alternatives are. Perhaps our most common piece of advice about how to use flash well is to do an internet search on "orionmystery concave diffuser". That will return hits like these (the first five, for when I did the search just now):

http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... pdate.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... ave-d.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... fuser.html
http://orionmystery.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... fuser.html
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50190146

Study those, puzzle through the chronological order of posting, think about the setups and the images they produce, and I expect that you'll be getting great results in no time.

--Rik

Thank you Rik, yes I've actually read (and re-read) a large chunk of his blog not just for his spectacular images but also his technical advice, I was planning to have a go at playing around with different diffusers but will probably end up with a concave type defuser as it does seem to be the popular way to go and I like the soft highlight to insect eyes it gives, but having no experience of flash guns and diffuser I guess I'll just have to give it a go, without a doubt it will be be one of the many things I need to learn along my way.

Luke, welcome aboard!

Quote:
...whereas I feel the 180mm is ...B) probably too prone to shake for someone new to macro.

In fact at the same magnification this will be about the same (identical about parallel to subject translation movements but a bit worse about rotating ones, if I recall well...)

IS is less useful when magnification increases, but I have not direct experience with IS dedicated macro lenses like the Canon L.

I have a YN 565EX and I easily can recommend it: inexpensive, full compatible with Canon both in automatic and manual modes , wireless functions...Just like a Canon 580EX but at a fraction of the price. You can control it from the 7D menu both wired o wireless
The only very small advantage I've found on original Canon EX units is more accurate color temperature because new units are able to communicate it to the camera but shooting RAW this is pretty irrelevant (well...new Canons have better construction with some water sealing, a nicer hot shoe...but this doesn't take pictures)
_________________
Pau

Yes come to think about it I'm guessing you are right as the magnification is the same on both the 60mm the 100mm and the 180mm but the working distance is difference, ether way the 180 is out of my price range at the moment!

In honesty the macro set up will likely be on the lesser 1100D and therefore i would need to control it wired (not that its a big issue, i'll probably just get a hotshoe cable)

Colour temperature isnt an issue as yes I will be shooting and correcting (if needed) in RAW,

and I shall look into that flash now,

Again thank you all for your help so far

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:27 pm

Well having done some basic research and looking at reviews the yongnuo 568ex ii seems to be the flash for me,

It has all the higher end feature's im likely to need between now and the future and at ~ £70 isnt going to break the bank ether compared to mid-large canon,

The 568mk2 is a touch more expensive then the 565 but has the following specifications

• Full ETTL Mode (same as 580EX II)
• Guide number 58 (same as 580EX II, although I'm guessing in real world this will be lower)
• High Speed Sync (the mark 1 only supports upto 1/250th, I'm not sure what sort of speed's i'll be shooting at on the 7D and 1100d side when combined with a flash but figured I'd rather that the facility there and not need it)
• Master Flash Mode (so if i do go down a multi flash route, including some/most canon flashes it seems)
• Wireless Remote / Slave Mode
• Full manual control between 1/1 and 1/128
• it also has Focus assist beam which i believe is missing on some of the lesser models.

Sound like a good buy?
is there any other 3rd brands / equivalent model's i should be looking at, the Yongnuo seems well regarded as 3rd party flashes go it seems.

I also just placed an order for some Eneloop XX 2500ma AA's and a decent intelligent recharger (trickle/variable charge rate, tester, refresher etc) as I've read this is the best type of chargers and Eneloop XX have a very good holding rate for charge.

Which ever flash I end up with it will use AA's

Pau · Post by **Pau** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:08 pm

568ex II seems totally OK.
565EXII will do exactly the same except radio transmission at lower price, but the price difference is not high.

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:50 pm

I can't find the reference about Neewer being more compact. I may have misremembered.

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:37 pm

Had a spot of luck tonight

Just purchased my (secondhand) Canon 100mm F2.8L, although I havent seen it in person its described as Mint or near Mint with all accessories, 14 day full returns policy no questions asked (if its scratched eg) (it was purchased from a regional chain), 24 month mechanical warranty AND it was ~£50 cheaper then the going rate on the last few i've been watching on ebay.

there's also a second hand Yongnuo 586exII second hand going in a few days time which I have my eye on, but if that fall's through I'll probably just buy a new one at the price.

Woop roll on deliveries,

Shane C · Post by **Shane C** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:05 pm

I happen to own a Canon EF 100mm 2.8L IS Macro, which I have been using recently with 68mm worth of extension tubes. I have owned this lens for, oh, must be 4 years now, and until I got a focusing rail rarely used it much for what it was designed for: extreme close-up photos up to 1:1 magnification. Even with IS, it is very difficult to use it handheld for macro shots owing to the narrow depth of field.

My camera when I got it was a 20D, and I tried taking handheld shots using a flash on a short TTL cord, which was almost impossible since I had to hold the flash with one hand and the camera with another, having no brackets of any kind at the time. (I have better resources now and can even use the builtin flash of my 70D as an optical wireless master.)

So, if you have questions about using this lens I can probably answer many of them. I've explored several of its quirks and peculiarities, and there are some, like it having the focal length vary with focusing (all right, that's not unusual these days, but when I learned about it I was surprised; I'm much more knowledgeable now).

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:09 pm

Well my Canon lens arrived, plus the batterys and charger
and I have a 586exii on order which should be here monday =]

Getting there slowly but surely.

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:41 pm

So today was the first time I could get out and try my new lens and flash,
now be gentle, these aren't my finest shots but its a start in macro,

all shots were taken with a Canon 1100D as Liz had the 7D, Canon 100mm and the 586II (no additional diffuser, I have a few bits on order to have a play etc and there were times were I could see definitely why it needs a diffuser)

Bluebell

tree buds

Wood Sorral

random Seedpod

A spent a good 10 minutes chasing after this been before losing it into some brambles but it made me laugh, I can officially say I have a macro shot of a bee, its an awful one that's not in focus and bad perspective but it made me chuckle.

Unfortunately the weather wasn't amazing and we were a few weeks too early for the full bluebell wood (there's absolutely tonnes of flowers but not in bloom)

I can see immediately that the flash is a bit harsh and my next thing is to figure out some sort of diffuser but figured I'd throw these up to say i'm still around!

Does anyone have any recommendation sites / tutorials for flashes? theres a few things that I have no idea what I'm doing with, for now I left it in ETTL but there was also a zoom button? on the flash which seems to move the bulb(??) within the flashgun further or closer to the front of the unit.

Ether way I cant wait to get out more, today was more just get a bit of a feel for the kit more then shoot anything specifically.

Cheers
Luke.

Charles Krebs · Post by **Charles Krebs** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:53 pm

Luke,

As you've mentioned, you intend to look at a diffuser for your flash, so no comments on the lighting itself.

One thing you may or may not be aware of is that when you view a macro shot through the viewfinder, the lens is at maximum aperture (f2.8 in this case). But at the instant the picture is taken the lens stops down to the set aperture. Your shots posted here do not have EXIF data, so I don't know what apertures were used. They look to be pretty small... which is fine for these magnifications and easy to do with flash. But you need to pay careful attention to what objects are behind your subject. When viewing at f2.8 the background may look smooth, dreamy, and does not distract from the subject. But if the picture is then taken at a small aperture the background appearance in the picture will be dramatically different from what was seen in the viewfinder. In your posted shots #2, #4, and #5 have backgrounds that compete for the viewers attention and distract from your primary subject.

Most cameras have a DOF preview function that will stop the lens down to the "taking" aperture so you can (supposedly) check your DOF. I say "supposedly" because it gets dark looking through the optical viewfinder and you can't really say exactly what your DOF is. But is can be extremely useful for checking how much the background will "come together", and how distracting it might become (instead of a "DOF Preview" I sometimes tell people to think of it as a "Background Checking" control).

Your 1100D does not have a "dedicated" DOF Preview button, but using one of the custom functions you can assign that duty to the "Set" button. Over time as you gain more experience you can actually get pretty competent at recognizing potentially distracting backgrounds without using such a control.

Acrotoxic · Post by **Acrotoxic** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:18 am

Hi Charles,

Thank you for taking the time to respond,
Yes I can see what you mean and I completely forgot about that DOF Preview function, yes I can bind it to the custom button (its currently not bound to anything that I'm aware of)

The metadata is
Photo 1 (bluebell): 100mm f/8 1/200 iso800 (ignore the high ISO i didnt realise it was shooting so high until halfway into my walk)
Photo 2 (tree bud): 100mm, f/9 1/160 iso200
Photo 3 (tree buds): 100mm f/9 1/80 iso 200
Photo 4 (wood Sorral): 100mm,f/9 1/100 iso200
Photo 5 (seedpod): 100mm, f/32 1/30 iso800
Photo 6 (bad bee shot): 100mm F/9 1/80 iso200

I did spend some time playing with a variety of f's as you can see ranging from wafer thin DOF f2.8 to fully open,although not apparent by the posted pictures, these were just some of the "better" shots

but do need to practice a lot more with the full range, I may do a bit of a "workstation" set up and take a few shots of the same subject in the same place with the different F stops and compare them.

You are right however I should have paid perhaps more attention to my background and not just my subject!

Also thanks for the information regarding the viewfinder i actually didnt know that in regards to the default viewfinder view being at F2.8 and not what the body is "set to",

As i said these shots were nothing particular more just get a used to the weight / grip / feel of the set up etc

I'm hoping to try and get out again mid week and see what I can find to shoot!