Building a infinity corrected lens setup for FF camera

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Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Kurt,

Every time I start to reply to this thread, more posts come in and it gets away from me. I was the friend who asked Rik about machining down the Raynox DCR-150. His initial impression is what made be think this lens would need to be disassembled for tight integration. But with benefit of Etalon's experience and Rik's re-examination, machining down the Raynox seems like a very good approach. I'd machine it to just slightly under 48.3mm, put it in a Thorlabs SM2 tube, and hold it in place with a pair of Thorlabs SM2RR retaining rings.

Here is what I wrote in my emailed correspondence with Rik:
  • . . .the best way that comes to mind so far involves a bit of machining. A Thorlabs SM2 lens tube (such as the SM2L10, or something longer) has a clear aperture of 48.3mm. The knurled ring on the Raynox has a diameter of 53mm.

    You have a good knowledge of lathes. Do you think it would be difficult to turn that knurled ring down to something just a bit smaller than 48.3mm?

    If so, a pair of SM2RR retaining rings would hold it in place very nicely. This could form the basis of a nice integration similar to what I have for my MT-1. A nice thing about Thorlabs is that their parts are generally less expensive than Edmund Optics. But of course they have a largely overlapping (and largely non-compatible) suite of opto-mechanical components. At the simple end, it would be easy to mount the Raynox in a lens tube, put appropriate mounts at each end, slip the ring into ring clamps, mount the ring clamps on an Arca plate, and call it a day. But it would be easy to add an iris, analyzer, and beam splitter.
    .
I haven't used Thorlabs tubes, but have used a bunch of other things from Thorlabs. I've also worked quite a bit with Edmund Optics tubes, and the two companies' tubes and related components are very similar, other than differing in diameters. (I've compared engineering drawings for these tube families at considerable length.)

What you do is straightforward. Get a lens tube of the desired length. Screw a retaining ring into it where you want one end of the machined Raynox lens to be. Drop the machined Raynox into the tube so that it rests on the retaining ring. Screw another retaining ring into the tube until it holds the Raynox snugly in place. You may want a spanner wrench to screwing in the retaining rings. Thorlabs will sell you one sized for the SM2 tubes (making the tool a single-tasker), or you can buy an adjustable spanner wrench (get a good one, and you'll have a versatile tool). Here is what looks to be an excellent video on lens spanner wrenches (I've only had a chance to watch the first part so far).

The nice thing about Thorlabs tube components is their combination of high-quality and low price, and the availability of a huge range of adapters and other components that work with them. I'd suggest keeping your build as fully "all Thorlabs" as possible. (This is somewhat true with Edmund Optics as well--though the prices are somewhat higher and some components a bit more posh. I went with Edmund because integrating an official Mitutoyo tube lens is more straightforward with Edmund parts.)

In other details, Thorlabs makes a nice F-mount for your camera (part # SM2NFM2) that will screw right onto the SM2 tubes, which will be better than using the Nikon BR2a and Thorlabs SM2A52.

I'd suggest omitting the SM2V15 (13.5 mm + 33.3 mm variable extension) and using solid tubes. The solid tubes are cheaper and more importantly, will give you a stronger, less flexible assembly. (I got rid of the variable extension tube in my assembly--it wasn't horrible, but I prefer the assembly without it.) By mounting a machined Raynox between two retaining rings, you can position it very precisely inside the fully-threaded lens tube, so you won't need the variable extension tube.

On the front of your MT2 tube, place a Thorlabs SM2A adapter to go from the SM2 tube to SM1 (necessary for the M26 objective mount coming next).

In front of this, mount a SM1A27 - Adapter with External SM1 Threads and Internal M26 x 0.706 (Mitutoyo objective) Threads

Get several lens tube mounts to hold everything in place, and mount these on an Arca-style rail. Or better, mount them on a sturdy piece of aluminum right angle stock, and mount Arca rails on both exterior sides to permit both landscape and portrait shooting.

If you think you will ever want an iris, the ability to cross-polarize, or add a beam splitter for axial illumination, now is the time to plan for it--and you could do any of these pretty easily with Thorlabs parts.

--Chris

Kurt
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Post by Kurt »

Chris,
thanks VERY much!!!
I haven't seen the F-mount adapter. this makes the setup much more simple. My "problem" was the usage of the retaining rings. I thought to machine the DCR 150 down to the small diameter Markus uses. But you're totally right, if it's only slight small the than tube the usual retaining rings should do the job.
Cheers,

Kurt

Saul
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Post by Saul »

My version for the Raynox assembly:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 145#187145
Saul
μ-stuff

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

Hi Chris

Please excuse my lack of knowledge but does this mean that using the extensions with say a raynox is better ( less or no vignette and greater clarity) then using a zoom lens 70-200mm @f2.8, set to 200mm @ infinity. I use the latter for my mitutoyo objectives and the vignette is significant if I go to f3.5 or higher.

cheers
Denis

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Clintonwake wrote:. . . does this mean that using the extensions with say a raynox is better ( less or no vignette and greater clarity) then using a zoom lens 70-200mm @f2.8, set to 200mm @ infinity. I use the latter for my mitutoyo objectives and the vignette is significant if I go to f3.5 or higher.
Denis,

I'm not surprised you get vignetting when you stop your zoom lens down--in fact, I'd expect it. But why stop it down? Granted that in standard use for general photography, most lenses perform better a stop or two down from wide open. But when you use a zoom lens as a converging lens for a microscope objective, light is only entering from the center of the lens--so in a sense, the zoom is effectively stopped down already.

I doubt that a Raynox would be better than your zoom, but this is just an educated guess. I've never used a Raynox; almost never used a zoom as a converging lens (and the one I tested was for medium format); and seldom use microscope objectives on full frame. Rik tested a Raynox against several official tube lenses, and found it to cover full frame better than the others (perhaps, to my eye, at the cost of increased chromatic aberration in the APS-C frame). I think we expect that a good prime lens designed for 35mm FF can will cover FF when used as a converging lens. But Raynox vs. zoom--if anyone has compared these head to head, I don't recall it.

For clarity, "the extensions" in a case like this do nothing more than hold a lens in front of the camera at the correct distance for it to focus on infinity, and to keep out stray light. With a zoom or prime camera lens, this has already been done for you by the lens maker.

Does any of this help?

--Chris

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Chris S. wrote:
Clintonwake wrote:. . . does this mean that using the extensions with say a raynox is better ( less or no vignette and greater clarity) then using a zoom lens 70-200mm @f2.8, set to 200mm @ infinity. I use the latter for my mitutoyo objectives and the vignette is significant if I go to f3.5 or higher.
Denis,

I'm not surprised you get vignetting when you stop your zoom lens down--in fact, I'd expect it. But why stop it down? Granted that in standard use for general photography, most lenses perform better a stop or two down from wide open. But when you use a zoom lens as a converging lens for a microscope objective, light is only entering from the center of the lens--so in a sense, the zoom is effectively stopped down already.

I doubt that a Raynox would be better than your zoom, but this is just an educated guess. I've never used a Raynox; almost never used a zoom as a converging lens (and the one I tested was for medium format); and seldom use microscope objectives on full frame. Rik tested a Raynox against several official tube lenses, and found it to cover full frame better than the others (perhaps, to my eye, at the cost of increased chromatic aberration in the APS-C frame). I think we expect that a good prime lens designed for 35mm FF can will cover FF when used as a converging lens. But Raynox vs. zoom--if anyone has compared these head to head, I don't recall it.

For clarity, "the extensions" in a case like this do nothing more than hold a lens in front of the camera at the correct distance for it to focus on infinity, and to keep out stray light. With a zoom or prime camera lens, this has already been done for you by the lens maker.

Does any of this help?

--Chris
Chris,

I was using a Nikon 70-200 F2.8 as a tubes lens with the Mitutoyo Objectives. Then I used the Raynox 150 reversed and I did get better results on a Nikon D800E. I can't recall how much better, but enough I never went back to the Nikon 70-200.

Mike

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

thanks Chris and Mawyatt

Its just that I read somewhere with the Mitutoyo & Nikon CF infinity objs I had to use the 200mm zoom lens so I am still confused,

I have the Canon 5dmkiii which is FF and use the canon 70-200mm but set the lens to 200mm and can only effectively use f2.8 etc as stated before , so are you suggesting I use a bellows or stack of extension tubes and attach some sort of glass at the end eg raynox or other and then attach the infinity objective.

Mawyatt, can I please see a photo of your setup

cheers
Denis

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

Clintonwake wrote:thanks Chris and Mawyatt

Its just that I read somewhere with the Mitutoyo & Nikon CF infinity objs I had to use the 200mm zoom lens so I am still confused,

I have the Canon 5dmkiii which is FF and use the canon 70-200mm but set the lens to 200mm and can only effectively use f2.8 etc as stated before , so are you suggesting I use a bellows or stack of extension tubes and attach some sort of glass at the end eg raynox or other and then attach the infinity objective.

Mawyatt, can I please see a photo of your setup

cheers
Denis
Denis,

Hopefully this will upload. BTW I use 52mm extensions and a Nikon BR2A adapter to the camera body. The extensions were all flocked with Protostar.

Best,

MikeImage



Image

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

Thank you very much for the photo

cheers
Denis

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

You are welcome. This doesn't cost much to do, the tubes & adapters are all eBay. The Raynox 150 was from B&H I recall.

I built 2 types, first with 43mm extension tubes, then with52mm. I did see some slight vignetting on a Nikon FF (D800E) with the 43mm, which is why I went with 52mm.

If you decide this route and use the eBay extension tubes, be sure to flock the inside. They are very reflective, you can easily see this by just looking down a barrel of them.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Best,

Mike

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

thanks , Are you on facebook?

I have raynox but need to order some stuff which I will do tonight

I have the nikon pb6 bellows

cheers
Denis

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

No not on Facebook.

If you have the PB6 then you are in good shape. I am using this now for a reversed Raynox 250 (125mm) with a Mitutoyo 5X to get to ~3X. This actually produces slightly better IQ than a reversed Raynox 150 (208mm) and Mitutoyo 2X, even though the 5X objective is not working into the "designed" length (200mm) but 125mm.

Others have posted that the Mitutoyo 2X are not quite as good IQ wise as the 5X, 10X and so on.

The PB6 allows you to fine adjust the inf. focus of the reversed (or forward) Raynox, which requires adjusting adapters with the "fixed" lens solution.

Best,

Mike

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

thanks, I found a post but am struggling to work out and find the adapters to reverse the raynox. Do you have a list?

cheers
Denis

mawyatt
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Post by mawyatt »

No list, sorry. Think you just need 52mm to 26mm (0.7) for the Mitutoyo, then 55mm to 52mm (52mm all the way thru), 52mm to 43mm to reversed Raynox, then 49mm to 52mm from reversed Raynox to standard 52mm then on to PB6.

These eBay adapters are so cheap (usually less than $2 each) I just got all possible combinations. Make sure you "work" the threads good before using, they can bind.

Best,

Mike

Clintonwake
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Post by Clintonwake »

Thanks Mike.

I have about 30 adapters already but not the ones for reversing the raynox or combining the raynox ( non reversed) with the infinity microscope objective :-).

cheers
Denis

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