question -Relaxing beetle bits (surfactants & chemicals)

Chris S. · Post by **Chris S.** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:58 pm

rjlittlefield wrote:As for injecting some fluid, the difficulty there is to get the "inflatant" to stay inside the abdomen, without leaking out and wetting the exterior.

I was thinking about a low-viscosity adhesive, which would be allowed to at least partly harden.

--Chris

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:20 pm

Sure, stuff that stays in place and gets hard.

The problem I'm seeing -- in the simulation inside my head -- is that after the subject is dry it's brittle so it can't be inflated, and before it's dry it's still wet so there is water that has to be displaced or at least tolerated. I guess I can imagine catching the thing at some critical point where most of the water is gone but the shell is still pliable, and re-inflating it at that point. This is still casually presuming that the wicking problem can be avoided. Most every time I mess with low viscosity cyanoacrylates, they end up wetting more of the specimen than I intended. I have no idea how to inject anything like that and keep it all on the inside. If somebody can figure out how to do all this, it would be great!

--Rik

Chris S. · Post by **Chris S.** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:51 pm

I'm probably among the last members of this community who should pursue this line of inquiry, as I (mostly) don't do insects, and so have relatively little experience with them.

rjlittlefield wrote:The problem I'm seeing -- in the simulation inside my head -- is that after the subject is dry it's brittle so it can't be inflated. . . .

My thinking is that one first dries the soft-bodied insect, accepting that this will cause the abdomen to shrivel. After this, use a relaxing chamber to soften the abdominal surface so that it is not brittle. Then inflate the abdomen with something that stays in place and gets hard. Then pin and dry the appendages--perhaps after, if necessary, an additional relaxation step.

Cyanoacrylates, as you are undoubtedly aware, are available in a range of viscosities. Does a viscosity exist that would inflate the abdomen without leaking to the exterior of the specimen? Or could the injection rate be modulated to avoid leakage? (Am thinking of a quick, tiny initial injection, to instill the glue in the immediate vicinity of the needle, creating a barrier around it; then, after a pause to allow this barrier to cure, a more liberal injection, to inflate the abdomen?

I should quit this line of inquiry--it's far outside my experience.

--Chris

TKG · Post by **TKG** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:03 pm

How about injecting something like Alumina powder? It is fine enough to make into a paste and still get through a very small needle use alcohol so it evaporates. http://www.kingsleynorth.com/skshop/pro ... &catID=110 I think a 4oz package would last a life time. This is all just a guess but it is cheap.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:21 am

TKG wrote:How about injecting something like Alumina powder? It is fine enough to make into a paste and still get through a very small needle use alcohol so it evaporates.

From the website: "A sub-micron alumina, white in color and is non-staining."

Interesting idea -- sort of like turning the abdomen into the world's smallest beanbag! The concern that strikes me here involves trying to push the paste through a needle. The last time I tried pumping wet sand through a small orifice the process did not go well and we ended up replacing some equipment. (Google "powder bridging" for a description of the general problem.) But perhaps this stuff is different and won't lock up under pressure. Do you have material and a small syringe to run a test?

--Rik

TKG · Post by **TKG** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:26 am

I have done it with 24,000 grit diamond thru 18ga. needle but, that was oil based. I don't have any syringes at the moment and will have to check to see what I have in the way of dry abrasives. I will get some syringes tomorrow and run some tests with what I have.

TheLostVertex · Post by **TheLostVertex** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:36 am

There are things like solder paste and thermal paste which can be used with various needle tips. Though their tips are meant for surface deposition and not piercing. Depending on the size needle needed solder paste might be a reasonable solution. At the very least it could lead to some very interesting bugs

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:54 am

I'm thinking of a sagging lath and plaster ceiling. (Got to stare at something

)

A common fix is to support it, then wet it with a weak solution of PVA glue. When you remove the supports it stays where you left it.
The water evaporates off leaving the glue supporting the structure.

Two hypodermics, one to suck, one to inject?

Shellac and alcohol mix could also work.

MaxRockbin · Post by **MaxRockbin** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:47 am

Sucking and injecting would be awkward, but if one were willing to tend the patient:

Get a sample of the desired bug and weight it in it's fully inflated natural state.

Put it out in the sun and let it dehydrate and weigh again.

Now, take the insect you want to dehydrate and mount and leave it in the sun, but follow a regular schedule of injections with the new (hopefully) shell solidifying fluid.

The tricky bit: You would have to figure out how much of the replacement fluid will evaporate during the sequence and progressively adjust the scheduled injections for that loss.

I guess first someone has to test the solidifying fluid ... Where's ice-9 when you need it?

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:01 am

I was thinking that if you sucked with one syringe, you could inject with the other to "refill"until it didn't look deflated.
You could try an intermediate injection of KOH?
Or try two punctures so it leaks away the excess, then lets air back in.

If you fancy DIY freeze drying, see
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 601#110601

MaxRockbin · Post by **MaxRockbin** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:40 pm

Maybe the ideal would be a bug IV that titrated just the right amount to replace for loss (with rigid-ifying fluid) as the bug dries.

Then you wouldn't need multiple punctures (on some bugs, I'm not even sure one puncture wouldn't just lead to rapid leakage).

Freeze drying might make more sense (I'll read the thread - and the paper Rik pointed to was good too).
I wonder if you could flash freeze them in something like a natural position w. liquid nitrogen? (but then you'd have to store that somewhere...). The refrigerator - then freezer technique will work for some insects (caterpillars, yes), but not many I've had experience with.

TKG · Post by **TKG** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:35 pm

Ok I tried , short story is fail
diabetic syringe + 1200 grit + alcohol = clogged mess
1200 grit was the the smallest I had that was dry. I bigger needle + smaller grit + thicket carrier i.e. KY might yield better result but, from what I observed the carrier to grit ratio would require too many injection + drying stages for my taste.

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:55 pm

I've wondered before about PEG - Poly Ethylene Glycol, which is used to replace water in wood, stabilising it. As in this boat . 19 years might be a bit much but we don't have foot-thick timbers or seawater.

Also used for rat intestines,
https://books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1481687751 Page 143

Someobody must have tried it on bugs?

MaxRockbin · Post by **MaxRockbin** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 2:54 pm

Re-opening my own thread...

To relax bug appendages, I've been using the procedure of leaving bugs in a container with paper towels moistened with distilled vinegar for up to 2 days (as Charles suggested, it wasn't working for me before because I hadn't left the bugs in the juice long enough. 24 hours usually doesn't do it).

That technique has been working really well, till today.
I found a banded alder borer longhorned beetle in the woods near me. A nice picturesque quite large specimen. You can see what they look like in some excellent photos by Robin Losnak here:

http://robinloznakphotography.blogspot. ... borer.html

That's pretty much what my specimen looked like.

After 2 days in vinegar, not so much:

(Actually it's even blacker than this. I tweaked it in photoshop to make the banding visible).

So...
My Question: How can I anticipate which bugs are likely to lose their pigment in the vinegar treatment?

Does it just take experience? Trial & Error?
Destroying a photogenic kind of rare bug like this is disheartening!

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:43 pm

Did you let it dry out again?

Sometimes those "gray" regions consist of a bunch of fine hairs that accumulate water in a relaxing chamber. They go black when they're wet but turn gray again when they get dry.

--Rik