Good day every one
I am new in this world , basically i just started to read about it.
I am studying engineering at one university and i am doing one scientific project . In that project i need to see small details in a workpiece
For example , assume that we have 1mm long work piece and there is a feature in the middle of that 1mm piece, the length of the feature is in the range of nano meters ! ( i.e 10 nm )
The problem here is that due to a certain limitations in the design , i can not use microscope. So i started to think about linking a camera to a microscopic objective
I have taken a lock at the topic in that link but i have a couple of concerns
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=12147
1- Will it work with me ?
2- What are the needed equipment ( in terms of cam , lens , objective ) ?
2- Which approach shall i use ( 1 or 2 ) ?
3- What is the range ( in nano meters ) which i can see ?
I would be very grateful to you if you were able to solve my issue
Help is needed in a scientific project related to cams
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
From what i understoodPau wrote:100nm is still under the limit
take a look:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 800#154800
we can start with 300 nm but with unclear resolution and we will be ok with 500nm
Ok , but what is the maximum area of the work piece ? can i deal with 1X1 mm?
A microscope objective when adequately coupled to the camera is in fact a microscope and the resolution will be the same.
You can see with optical microscopy features of 300nm, but this is very close to the Abbe's limit of 200nm. You'll need the better oil immersion objective with NA about 1.4, blue light and the feature will not show smaller details. To manage that optics you'll need a very good setup with a precision similar to a good microscope.
The field of view will be smaller than 1x1mm (about a 0.2mm circle with a 100X objecitve) but this is not a priori a limitation because you can take several displaced images and stitch them.
Undoubtedly an EM, likely a SEM, seems a priori the right tool for that kind of work, not optical microscopy
You can see with optical microscopy features of 300nm, but this is very close to the Abbe's limit of 200nm. You'll need the better oil immersion objective with NA about 1.4, blue light and the feature will not show smaller details. To manage that optics you'll need a very good setup with a precision similar to a good microscope.
The field of view will be smaller than 1x1mm (about a 0.2mm circle with a 100X objecitve) but this is not a priori a limitation because you can take several displaced images and stitch them.
Undoubtedly an EM, likely a SEM, seems a priori the right tool for that kind of work, not optical microscopy
Pau
Pau wrote:A microscope objective when adequately coupled to the camera is in fact a microscope and the resolution will be the same.
You can see with optical microscopy features of 300nm, but this is very close to the Abbe's limit of 200nm. You'll need the better oil immersion objective with NA about 1.4, blue light and the feature will not show smaller details. To manage that optics you'll need a very good setup with a precision similar to a good microscope.
The field of view will be smaller than 1x1mm (about a 0.2mm circle with a 100X objecitve) but this is not a priori a limitation because you can take several displaced images and stitch them.
Undoubtedly an EM, likely a SEM, seems a priori the right tool for that kind of work, not optical microscopy
sorry for bothering you again
Know we are satisfied with 500 nm = 0.5um
So , what are the needed equipments to achieve such condition ( type of camera , lens , objective ) what should be the distance between the objective and the sensor
what can we say about the resolution in this case ?
locking forward to hear from you
kfupm wrote:If you are asking about the material of the feature to be seen. It can be any thing such as steel or even plasticChrisR wrote:What sort of material is it?
Acutely , the AFM will be used in an other stage , but the cam and objective assembly are needed while handling and controlling ( manipulating) the object
So , the question again is what are the needed equipment (cam , lens , objective, etc )
What is the needed setup ( distance between objective and sensor )
What will be the resolution when i am locking at a feature of 0.5 um length ( 500 nm )
What is the enlarging or zooming scale
Hi Kfupm,
If I understand you correctly, you’re looking for a system that will let you view specimens so that a feature of 0.5µm size can be positioned. So the half-micron-sized feature doesn’t have to be pretty—it needs to be locatable. If this is so, you need to first consider the numerical aperture (NA) and working distance (WD) of your lens. In an ideal lens, NA determines resolution (a less-than ideal lens may not deliver all the resolution theoretically possible from a given NA). WD is a measurement of the space you have between the front of the objective and the specimen (useful for ease of subject handling, ability to work with non-flat specimens, and ability to shine light onto the subject). The short answer is that you probably want the highest combination of NA and WD that you can afford. Since you’re looking at opaque materials, such as metals and plastics, you can limit your search to microscope objectives designed for reflected (not transmitted) light. Many (though not all) of these are called “metallurgical” or “M plan” objectives.
One objective I use that I think might work for you is the 100X Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity-Corrected Long WD Objective. It has an NA of 0.70, a WD of 6mm, and a price of about $3500 USD. According to Mitutoyo, the resolving power is 0.4µm—only a bit smaller than your target, so a bit uncomfortably close to the margin, but maybe workable.
You might be able to get away with the 50X Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity-Corrected Long WD Objective (which I also use). It has an NA of 0.55, a WD of 13mm, and price of about $2700 USD. According to Mitutoyo, the resolving power is 0.5µm—so its reported limit is your object. So more marginal than the 100x, it seems to me, but still possibly functional.
Another interesting possibility is the Kozo 100x M Plan APO SL objective. It has an NA of 0.8, a WD of 4.mm, and a price of $850. The Kozo company has lent me a specimen of this lens for testing. However, it arrived very recently, so I’m not yet ready to venture an opinion on it. But clearly, the specifications and price are very attractive. Also of note, this lens is specified to offer a very large image field. If edge quality holds up in my tests, this lens could be used on a full-frame DSLR, which will provide a larger field of view than the Mitutoyo does.
One thing to note is that these lenses are apochromats, which is something you probably don’t need. (This means that they are corrected for red, blue, and violet colors—representing the ends and midpoint of the visible light spectrum). Achromatic objectives (corrected for red and blue light only), are cheaper, and some of them might have a higher NA. If all you want to do is handle and position a subject, you could probably work in blue light, which gives higher resolution than red light, and eliminates concerns about correction for different points in the visible spectrum.
Once you choose your objective lens, you will need to choose—and integrate—a converging lens to go with it. (This is also called a tube lens). Once you have made these choices, we can discuss what camera you should purchase. My guess is that you’ll want to see your subject real-time, on a computer screen. You will do this using the “live view” feature included in most current interchangeable lens cameras.
Just as importantly, you’ll need to build or buy a system that is stable with these optics. This is not a small thing. Your system will need to let you focus your optics on the subject, and takes care of supporting and manipulating your subjects. An easy answer here, if you can afford it, is to purchase a Mitutoyo Finescope or similar industrial microscope (Kozo also makes these, but I know nothing about them. So do other companies.) Or you can build an integration of your own, as I’ve done (see the link in my signature—and note that there are links at that post to later evolutions in my rig). You’ll also need to consider lighting. For manipulation and positioning of subjects, it will have to be continuous lighting—probably either LED or halogen.
Cheers,
--Chris
Edited to include signature
You aren’t bothering us! We’re here because we like talking about this sort of thing. However, for what you are looking to do, there are no quick or well-tested answers at this forum. You are venturing into the territory of careful and involved system building.sorry for bothering you again
If I understand you correctly, you’re looking for a system that will let you view specimens so that a feature of 0.5µm size can be positioned. So the half-micron-sized feature doesn’t have to be pretty—it needs to be locatable. If this is so, you need to first consider the numerical aperture (NA) and working distance (WD) of your lens. In an ideal lens, NA determines resolution (a less-than ideal lens may not deliver all the resolution theoretically possible from a given NA). WD is a measurement of the space you have between the front of the objective and the specimen (useful for ease of subject handling, ability to work with non-flat specimens, and ability to shine light onto the subject). The short answer is that you probably want the highest combination of NA and WD that you can afford. Since you’re looking at opaque materials, such as metals and plastics, you can limit your search to microscope objectives designed for reflected (not transmitted) light. Many (though not all) of these are called “metallurgical” or “M plan” objectives.
One objective I use that I think might work for you is the 100X Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity-Corrected Long WD Objective. It has an NA of 0.70, a WD of 6mm, and a price of about $3500 USD. According to Mitutoyo, the resolving power is 0.4µm—only a bit smaller than your target, so a bit uncomfortably close to the margin, but maybe workable.
You might be able to get away with the 50X Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity-Corrected Long WD Objective (which I also use). It has an NA of 0.55, a WD of 13mm, and price of about $2700 USD. According to Mitutoyo, the resolving power is 0.5µm—so its reported limit is your object. So more marginal than the 100x, it seems to me, but still possibly functional.
Another interesting possibility is the Kozo 100x M Plan APO SL objective. It has an NA of 0.8, a WD of 4.mm, and a price of $850. The Kozo company has lent me a specimen of this lens for testing. However, it arrived very recently, so I’m not yet ready to venture an opinion on it. But clearly, the specifications and price are very attractive. Also of note, this lens is specified to offer a very large image field. If edge quality holds up in my tests, this lens could be used on a full-frame DSLR, which will provide a larger field of view than the Mitutoyo does.
One thing to note is that these lenses are apochromats, which is something you probably don’t need. (This means that they are corrected for red, blue, and violet colors—representing the ends and midpoint of the visible light spectrum). Achromatic objectives (corrected for red and blue light only), are cheaper, and some of them might have a higher NA. If all you want to do is handle and position a subject, you could probably work in blue light, which gives higher resolution than red light, and eliminates concerns about correction for different points in the visible spectrum.
Once you choose your objective lens, you will need to choose—and integrate—a converging lens to go with it. (This is also called a tube lens). Once you have made these choices, we can discuss what camera you should purchase. My guess is that you’ll want to see your subject real-time, on a computer screen. You will do this using the “live view” feature included in most current interchangeable lens cameras.
Just as importantly, you’ll need to build or buy a system that is stable with these optics. This is not a small thing. Your system will need to let you focus your optics on the subject, and takes care of supporting and manipulating your subjects. An easy answer here, if you can afford it, is to purchase a Mitutoyo Finescope or similar industrial microscope (Kozo also makes these, but I know nothing about them. So do other companies.) Or you can build an integration of your own, as I’ve done (see the link in my signature—and note that there are links at that post to later evolutions in my rig). You’ll also need to consider lighting. For manipulation and positioning of subjects, it will have to be continuous lighting—probably either LED or halogen.
Cheers,
--Chris
Edited to include signature
Last edited by Chris S. on Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
If I understand you correctly, you’re looking for a system that will let you view specimens so that a feature of 0.5µm size can be positioned. So the half-micron-sized feature doesn’t have to be pretty—it needs to be locatable.
Acutely it needs to be locatable and pretty !
You can imagine that i have a rectangular specimen (1mmX1mm) and there is a feature in the middle of that specimen which has a length of (minimum 0.5 um ) i need to locate it and see it because i will be playing with it using manipulators
Picture is attached to clarify what i am saying
Also , i have to add one more question
what are the limitations on the dimensions of the specimen it self . In an other word my specimen be ( 3mmX3mm ) what factor determines this is it the objective ? I think you call this field view
Acutely it needs to be locatable and pretty !
You can imagine that i have a rectangular specimen (1mmX1mm) and there is a feature in the middle of that specimen which has a length of (minimum 0.5 um ) i need to locate it and see it because i will be playing with it using manipulators
Picture is attached to clarify what i am saying
Also , i have to add one more question
what are the limitations on the dimensions of the specimen it self . In an other word my specimen be ( 3mmX3mm ) what factor determines this is it the objective ? I think you call this field view
Chris S. wrote:Hi Kfupm,
If I understand you correctly, you’re looking for a system that will let you view specimens so that a feature of 0.5µm size can be positioned. So the half-micron-sized feature doesn’t have to be pretty—it needs to be locatable.sorry for bothering you again
Acutely it needs to be locatable and pretty !
You can imagine that i have a rectangular specimen (1mmX1mm) and there is a feature in the middle of that specimen which has a length of (minimum 0.5 um ) i need to locate it and see it because i will be playing with it using manipulators
Picture is attached to clarify what i am saying
Also , i have to add one more question
what are the limitations on the dimensions of the specimen it self . In an other word my specimen be ( 3mmX3mm ) what factor determines this is it the objective ? I think you call this field view
