Is the MP E worth over the raynox?

Craig Gerard · Post by **Craig Gerard** » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:53 pm

More fuel for the discussion.

Low magnification MPE-65 shots: (the following thread has two pages)
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=10404

Craig

anvancy · Post by **anvancy** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:08 am

Thanks Chris. For me as of now, I can afford the Velbon. But taking a custom kit which goes beyond the velbon, may not be affordable for me. the velbon is retailing for approx 130. I dont think I have an alternative in that price range.

@Rik and Javier: now that we are more into the decision of buying the 100mm, if its possible for you can you show a quick test on the stages where the continuous mag available on the MPE will be an advantage over the 100mm where the mag will not be continuous. If you can provide uncropped shots, i.e. normal field shots it will be highly useful. What I am now thinking is, buying the 100mm + the Extension tubes + velbon if its necessary. the tripod that Hokan uses interested me. But the price is a big dent in my pocket.

@Craig: If I buy the MPE I will already be exhausting my budget.so buying a tc will be out of question right now.

Thanks guys for the help.

Anvancy

geetee50 · Post by **geetee50** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:57 am

Hi I've used the Raynox DCR-150 and DCR-250 for two years now and I’m very happy with their performance, they both perform at their best alongside a 75mm and above. I would say as long as the Raynox are used with the best and right glass the difference won’t be that much of an issue. The contrast on the MPE is super nice though. Dof is not an issue if you learn to shoot a few images to stack.

I was very keen for a mpe and looked into all the pros and cons of the Raynox with 100mm over the MPE. I think if your shooting off the hip get a Canon 100mm L or standard 100mm and use the 150 and 250 Raynox around F:10 with flash for ok dof, you can push the L right up to F:22+ but light gets tricky, 3 image sets are easy as pie if you want a little dof on your critter just by shooting in continuous mode and rotating the focus through the head or deeper into the bug till all the bits you want are super sharp, I’ve done this all last summer with great results every time! Taking 15 images in jpeg before the bug had time to flinch! Try it on a flower. Timing and a steady knee is key but its obvious once you try it.

IMO

Active bugs: 100mm every time. Learn to shoot several images and stack.

Early morning field work: MPE

Studio work: Objective lens every time

That said if you like a challenge and have £700 go for the MPE you won’t be disappointed but your stress levels shooting active critters with this lens may send your blood pressure through the roof ;-)

Good luck Gary

12 image stack

seta666 · Post by **seta666** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:36 am

anvancy wrote: @Rik and Javier: now that we are more into the decision of buying the 100mm, if its possible for you can you show a quick test on the stages where the continuous mag available on the MPE will be an advantage over the 100mm where the mag will not be continuous. If you can provide uncropped shots, i.e. normal field shots it will be highly useful. What I am now thinking is, buying the 100mm + the Extension tubes + velbon if its necessary. the tripod that Hokan uses interested me. But the price is a big dent in my pocket
Anvancy

Sorry but right know I have lot of work to do and I can not perform any tests; The MP-E for sure will always perform better than the Canon 100 + raynox combo; as I said that solution is a budget alternative to the MP-E.
I would not get the extension tubes if you already have the raynox lenses

Also, there are very cheap second hand alternatives to the velbon focusing rail; you can find some bargains on ebay if you keep looking. Stay away from cheap chinese rail, I have used them but as part of a cheap system for framing in the studio.

As craig suggests you could also turn the MP-E into an infinity focusing lens, there is no need to buy a new and expenssive TC; there are many options second hand for as low as 10-20$

Regards
Javier

enricosavazzi · Post by **enricosavazzi** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:06 am

Chris S. wrote:
anvancy wrote:Will the velbon rail be sufficient for the initial phase(?) A point that needs to be noted is, I am not into professional macro shooting, where I have setups of microscope and objectives. Just a hobbyist person. keeping this factor in consideration, whats your view on the velbon? lets just focus on this particular one.
Anvancy, I have a Velbon rail and so know it reasonably well. It is not junk, but I have a hard time recommending it. Mine has been sitting on a shelf for two or three years unused; meanwhile, my microscope focusing blocks and Velmex stages have gotten constant use for macro stacking. The difference between the Velbon rail and a top-quality rail is similar to the difference between a budget tripod/head and a $1,000 tripod/head; the cheap ones can often be made to work, though frequently with annoyance; the good ones tend to work instantly and without trouble. Once one has tried a really good setup, there is no going back--the extra money buys convenience, dependability, and quick, repeatable results. It is possible to get good images with a Velbon rail under some circumstances (such as with low magnifications, careful use, and a willingness to put up with a level of aggravation). But spending more on a macro rail will, for many of us, be money well spent.

A very good approach, in regards to a macro rail, would be to avoid Velbon, RRS, Kirk, and their ilk, and put together a Velmex rig similar to what Hokan did here. Don't expect to get off as inexpensively as Hokan did, and be sure to call Velmex and speak with their helpful staff about your options. Be ready to do or hire a bit of custom fabricating to make it work with your setup. If you do that, you should have something that is very serviceable, and, while not as cheap as the Velbon, represents money well spent.

Cheers,

--Chris

Like Chris, I have not used my Velbon rack for a few years. It is not one of the worst I have tried, but not one of the best either. I would be able to use it up to maybe 2x, perhaps 3x with considerable patience. I would also be prepared to see an obvious amount of lateral drift and flexing at 2x-3x. I am certainly spoiled by habitually using better equipment, and this may color my judgement.

Like Chris I would not go as far as recommending the Velbon focusing rack, but I would not either oppose it as vehemently as I would other focusing racks. In other words, it is not the worst out there, but be aware that we never said it is the right or best thing to get.

geetee50 · Post by **geetee50** » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:38 am

I looked into buying a Velbon rail and glad i never did, the idea is great but you will get the same results from the rails on ebay at £15, after some research i settled for a Manfrotto 454 it is clean upto 3x and has a handy release arm to pull the rail back.

rjlittlefield · Post by **rjlittlefield** » Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:37 pm

anvancy wrote:@Rik and Javier: now that we are more into the decision of buying the 100mm, if its possible for you can you show a quick test on the stages where the continuous mag available on the MPE will be an advantage over the 100mm where the mag will not be continuous.

Sorry, no time here for shooting more test images -- completely saturated with computer problems.

The discontinuity in magnification is not a big issue. With my DCR-250 in front of my Canon 100 L, I measure 2.0X (11 mm field width) at closest focus. That combo will not go up to 2.4X, so apparently something is different from the setup that Javier describes. I don't have an MSN-202, but working from the spec of 25 diopters = 40 mm, minimum magnification with that combo would be 2.5X (100 mm divided by 40 mm). So for me, the range of 2X to 2.5X would be unreachable. That's no problem, just shoot at 2X and crop as needed. If the CA and loss of resolution that I showed earlier is not a problem for your application, then cropping is a fine solution.

Speaking of CA, here's a comparison I prepared earlier but didn't have time to post out. It's designed to illustrate my point that the Raynox lenses sometimes add CA even when used on high end lenses. On the left are corner pixels from my Canon 100 L plus 65 mm of extension tubes; on the right are corner pixels from the same Canon 100 L with no tubes but with a Raynox DCR-250. Comparing against images posted earlier, it seems that the Canon 100 L on tubes is very close to the MP-E at same magnification and effective aperture, but in combination with the Raynox there are color fringes and some loss of resolution when pixel-peeping.

I don't imagine that this helps your decision, but I suspect that this thread will get referenced in coming years so I'd like to be sure that the points are clear.

--Rik

anvancy · Post by **anvancy** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:09 am

This thread has surely helped me in going in depth regarding what macro weapon to buy.

After much thinking, I have decided that given the forex is on the friendly side, I will buy the MP-E. Doing my own research, I found that some those who bought the MPE bought it straight, ie without venturing into macro through either a lens or an achromat like the raynox. Having used the raynox a lot, I feel and what Javier and Rik have rightly said the MP-E will provide that edge.True my blood will boil with the learning curve but the raynox also gives the boil. IF the forex goes out of control,then I will have to restrict myself and go with the 100mm.

Now I change the focus of the discussion to the rails. What I need help with is, since some here are stating cheap rails will be better than the velbon, can anybody provide links? I will be buying from amazon USA so links from amazon will be highly helpful. Also the TC that Brian did an experiment to change the mag, any links for the tcs on amazon?

Since Velbon is not liked here, what about the Manfrotto? there are too many Chinese makes.but which to buy is also a confusion . I am not in any way a pro.I want a rail to "start off"/take further the hobby. Lets say I want to learn a bicycle. I dont need a fancy one.a decent with side wheels to help me balance out.

This forum has been of immense help. and I think many people had this same question that I had. as you have rightly said Rik, the thread will be referenced a Lot.

I am not ending the discussion but now want to focus on the rail aspect.

Anvancy

geetee50 · Post by **geetee50** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:43 am

Hi glad you have come to your decision, As you will be using this rail with a lens up to 5x I would simply say get a Newport or similar rail for precision transitions, we can spend thousands in this hobby changing items for better as we progress, A Newport will be in your used items for years to come.

Their are many types in this style of rail but one with bearings and a micrometer should suffice.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/430-Newport-H ... 519f9b0583

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Newport-430-S ... 27c813ef93

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... 0e3613ac05

ChrisR · Post by **ChrisR** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:49 am

All the rails "work", but as has been said, some move laterally, or not smoothly. Some have coarser movements than others, you'll have to scour the specifications for that.
The Manfrotto 454 for example can be moved in small increments but it moves sideways at the same time. Not so much to ruin a stack, but it's not a precision tool. I've used mine for 3x on a tripod with some difficulty, having got used to it and with a lever added to the adjustment knob. It's also possible to use it without adding extra clamps or tripod fittings, which is NOT the case with many "better" solutions.

The Chinese rails (mine anyway, all may not be the same) are coarse so can't be used for magnifications over about 2x, but are useful for positioning a subject. They're cheap enough that you could get one to try.

It'll be up to you to decide what you find "good enough"!. That principle also applies to optics - and everything else really.

geetee50 · Post by **geetee50** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:16 am

The Manfrotto 454 for example can be moved in small increments but it moves sideways at the same time. Not so much to ruin a stack, but it's not a precision tool. I've used mine for 3x on a tripod with some difficulty

I've found this rail works at its best if balanced, keep the weight over the tripod mount, nip the tension screw up just enough to allow tight movement.

I wouldn't consider this rail with the MPE!

seta666 · Post by **seta666** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:22 am

rjlittlefield wrote: The discontinuity in magnification is not a big issue. With my DCR-250 in front of my Canon 100 L, I measure 2.0X (11 mm field width) at closest focus. That combo will not go up to 2.4X, so apparently something is different from the setup that Javier describes.

There must be something different in their design then, I have tested the canon 100 plus DCR-250 and I get 2.25:1 magnification (little over 16mm FOV on FF camera). The magnification ranges I quoted were talking by memory, since I have not used the raynox lenses since I moved to full frame cameras

anvancy wrote:This thread has surely helped me in going in depth regarding what macro weapon to buy.

After much thinking, I have decided that given the forex is on the friendly side, I will buy the MP-E.

............................

I am not ending the discussion but now want to focus on the rail aspect.

Anvancy

Hello Anvancy;
You will not regret it as the MP-E is a Joy to use, but sooner or later you will buy the 100mm macro too as they complement each other very well for field work

If you finally buy the MP-E then you need a micrometer rail as geetee50 says for stacking, the one I use is Newport 420
and also a focus rail for coarse adjustments as the MP-E has no focus and length and Working distance change a lot depending on the magnification.

In this post you will see my field set up with a full description
http://www.flickr.com/photos/seta666/71 ... hotostream

Also, for the MP-E you will need a solid focus rail so forget the velbon, one option could be old novoflex castel mini (ebay 320954626637) or the new one (ebay 160854336370) which I just bought for 100€ incluiding shipping to Spain; this old zeiss ikon could also do the Job (ebay 150786249672)

Regards
Javier

geetee50 · Post by **geetee50** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:39 am

If you finally buy the MP-E then you need a micrometer rail as geetee50 says, the one I use is Newport 420
and also a focus rail for coarse adjustments as the MP-E has no focus and length and Working distance change a lot depending on the magnification.

Ah yes a very important point Javier!

I now use the Manfrotto 454 for setup only, its super quick due to the release arm.

anvancy · Post by **anvancy** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:08 am

After checking the rail prices that have been suggested here, one thing is certain that I cannot afford even the 420 now. the forex is in a way in a bad shape, so the exchange rate is making things costly. I suppose I will move step by step.

What interested me was also the tripod that you have Javier. How is the Berlebach macro tripod. I saw one which was for 99 euros. do you have the same one? Also if you can throw more light when u have time in assembling the kit for me? As in providing links? I am interested in the clamp technique since windy situations are a lot. Let me put forward my request to you and others. Let us for the time being take out the macro rail from the list due to financial reason.

1. Berlebach tripod?I use the manfrotto 055xprob and it is NOT at all suitable for macro.
2.Clamps and support material?
3.Other imp stuff.

If people from the US can provide links from where to buy, the purchase part will be done without a fuss. I will be getting my stuff from the USA to India, so requesting a list.

Anvancy

seta666 · Post by **seta666** » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:37 am

The tripod on the link I posted is the stabil macro, it is a very nice tripod but I always had problems with it collapsing when working in low position.
As a result of this I have damaged parts of it because overthightening the locks. This tripod need a ballhead, I use manfrottos's 410
http://www.stabil.nu/10.html

Other tripod I use is the berlebach mini with levelling, which makes a vey light portable system
http://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=detail ... he=english
http://www.flickr.com/photos/seta666/70 ... hotostream
The 99€ one you talk about is the Berlebach mini, you need a ballhead with this one
http://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=detail ... he=english

Artuiculated arms I use cheap chinese ones, that do the job; I can not find them on ebay now but they are like this
http://www.wexphotographic.com/buy-roto ... r/p1528624

You do need a proper micrometer rail and a afocusing rail, otherwise working with the MP-E on tripod is going to be very difficult. The MP-E is a powerfull lens but power without control is nothing ;-)

I made an intermediate aluminium plate were I have fixed the Newport 420, 2 arms and quick release system on top and below

regards
Javier