Microscope vs. bellow

[enricosavazzi]

I have an M420 with the same type of focusing rack, but mounted on an ordinary table-top stand with vertical column only. I have noticed a certain flexibility of the macroscope body (and/or its attachment to the focusing rack) that tends to amplify the mirror slap and shutter vibrations. The way to avoid vibrations of the M420 that works for me is to expose with electronic flash (I did not try long exposures because of noise concerns). Flexibility of a custom-built photo tube is also a possible concern, but even with the original Wild photo tube I had the same problem. The top of the macroscope body, where the photo tube attaches, is cast alloy and not so thick. The main casing is also relatively thin, not massive like certain devices by Zeiss (e.g. the Tessovar) and other brands.

[g4lab]

So you are using direct projection from the splitting prism.

Usually there is one of several types of optic placed in between the exit of the prism and the sensor.

One method puts a regular Wild or Leica fixed 10x ocular and then about 100 mm to 125 mm later there is a 0.32x lens with a T mount or a Wild Leica film camera.

Another method is to use adapters from Diagnosic Instruments. Some of these have a 2.5x ocular as projective lens. Others have a variety of DI designed and built optics that are focusable and made to a very high standard. There is a bit of effort required to get them matched up to the specific application because they made several different series and not all the data on their gear has been published on the net. Their camera adapters have C mounts , Nikon mounts or Sony video bayonets. There have been a few of the higher quality ones built with T mounts. These are very rare.

There is an Austrian company called LM that makes adaptations for the M420 but they are rather expensive. The number $1200 comes to mind.

Nonetheless you should be able to get excellent performance from your M420 because you probably are not anywhere near using all of its resolution. I don't know the sensor size and pixel density of the particular camera you are using.


If the problem is in fact vibration from the shutter you might consider adding something like a crutch and putting a lifting force on the part of the boom stand which is cantilevered out into space. I have seen this work when using a drill press to do the work of a milling machine. The additional support prevents vibration and resonance swinging.

Also this fellow in Italy (ebay handle big_satyr)sells stands that are similar to Wild Leica that might help. He will make them to your order and his prices are quite reasonable. I will probably buy one of his stands but have not yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0645977093

[Chris S.]

So what can I do?
Change to longer times? LED light? Another camera?
Or try to build a bellow system on my own?

Oro, you are not alone--you're facing a problem most of us have had.

Here's where I would start with the vibration problem. First, the D70, while a great camera, is pretty hard to do macro with because of the lack of mirror-up shooting. You can use longer exposures as Charles discussed--but while great for testing as you've done, this is limiting for the long term. I'd recommend getting a camera with a mirror-up mode. A great choice would be the Nikon D200, which I see used on eBay between $400-$600. If you go this route, you'll also want to get a 10-pin electronic release--these sell for just a few dollars on eBay, if you avoid getting a Nikon brand. Mirror-up will probably make your life a lot easier.

Another route is to use flash, which is like using a high shutter speed, since flash duration can be very short. It doesn't have to be an expensive or fancy flash--an old one from the film days will work fine. If you get some cheap radio triggers from eBay, it doesn't even have to be a Nikon flash (there are other ways to use another brand of flash--this is just an easy one.) If you go this route, try using a two-second exposure in a darkened room (dark enough that if the flash doesn't fire, you don't expose an image), with the flash set to go off at the end of the exposure (this is called "rear curtain" flash). Your D70 should support this mode. This way, the mirror lifts and the shutter curtain goes up--all in the dark, and the camera has a couple of seconds to quiet down before the flash goes off, creating the image.

I use all these together--mirror up with electronic release, long exposure in dark room, flash at the end of the exposure. Probably overkill, but it works.

I'll bet you don't need need to build your own bellows system--yet. You have a pretty nice rig, and with flash or a different camera, you can probably make it sing. That said, building one's own bellows system is a lot of fun and can take you to a higher level. If you haven't seen it already, a thread by Charles that showcases his and other nifty bellows rigs is a great place to start. http://photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2825

Also, a warm welcome to the forum to you!

Cheers,

--Chris

[enricosavazzi]

Also this fellow in Italy (ebay handle big_satyr)sells stands that are similar to Wild Leica that might help. He will make them to your order and his prices are quite reasonable. I will probably buy one of his stands but have not yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0645977093

I bought one (not the one at the link but another with a larger base) over a year ago. The column is fine, and I re-used it for a custom-made stand. The base, however, appears to be made from a rather heavy "synthetic-stone" material (like Corian) and slightly more flexible than I like. Also, it is a greyish material spray-painted white, with the paint easily scratched off with a fingernail. The paint of the black aluminium stubs also comes off easily.

Incidentally, the base and column came in separately mailed packages, for reasons unknown.

[oro]

Thanks a lot to all of you! I haven`t expected such an interesting feedback!

So my decision would be another camera. Although I haven`t decided now to use the M420 or a bellow system, I assume I need another camera both ways.
Chris suggested the Nikon D200, anyone concurring this?

[rjlittlefield]

Chris suggested the Nikon D200, anyone concurring this?

Well, dissenting maybe.

As Charles Krebs has written in another thread,

I always feel the need to preface the next few comments by saying that I am about equally invested in Nikon and Canon gear... and like both systems very much. But there is simply no doubt in my mind that if you are going to use a continuous light source with a microscope mounted DSLR, the Canon bodies that use an "electronic first shutter curtain" in the live view mode cause far less vibration problems than any SLR I have ever used.

This "electronic first shutter curtain" feature basically eliminates the issue of camera-induced vibration. The only downside is somewhat increased pixel noise due to warming of the sensor in LiveView mode, which is required to use the EFSC feature. Since I first got access to EFSC with my Canon T1i, about a year ago, I have used it for almost all my bench and tripod shots. It's really quite enabling to know that when the image looks sharp and steady at actual pixels in LiveView, it will look equally sharp in the actual exposure.

Of course the electronics and aperture linkages in Nikon and Canon mounts are different, so you would not be able to swap automatic lenses. But because the Canon mount is a little shallower than Nikon's, you can get a Nikon-to-Canon adapter that will provide mechanical mount that is focus compatible with your current camera.

--Rik

[oro]

Thanks Rik,

As I have been using only Nikon equipment my whole life I wouldn`t like to switch to Canon even when there are adapters available.

So the problem of D200 are still pixel noises ....
What would be the first Nikon camera without that problem? D300?
I saw the prices are going up dramatically for such cameras but Christmas is also comming somewhere ;-)

[Chris S.]

Dissent is always good.

However, I recommended the D200 because it is a very cost effective Nikon--and Nikon is what Oro is already set up for. I myself don't see the value in using live view for studio macro photography. Tethering gives most of the advantages without heating up the sensor. And with mirror up, flash exposure, and a longish shutter speed, the shutter curtain is already up--so I can't see the Canon benefit except in precisely the situation where one prefers to use continuous lighting and live view. If one prefers flash lighting, the point is moot.

Oro, I don't know what pixel noises you are refering to. At base ISO, where one would normally shoot studio macro, my D200 actually outperforms my d700, which is an incredibly low-noise camera. It's only at higher ISOs where the D200 has problems (and big problems they are compared with the D700). But for macro, this is a non-issue.

For macro work, I can't see that a D300 would give you any advantage over the D200--but it would cost much more.

--Chris

[oro]

Here is my first serious test.
The crystall measures 1,2 mm; 30 pics stacked with Zerene; just resized it but nothing else; oh yes time was 3 sec

[shrek]

Ho ,beautifull Fluorite
but ,the shadow is not nice

jp

[AndrewC]

Nikons are great. I've got a cupboard full of them. However, I'm not convinced they are the best for macrophotography. My main bugbear being dust bunnies and shear size. I'm in the throws of converting over to a Micro 4/3 system using a Panasonic G body with sensor cleaning. This isn't perfect - despite having an HDMI connection you can't see the live view on it, it only works for review but then with a G1 body you have a high quality tiltable view screen, you can image transfer with an Eye.fi card, it is very small, no mirror bouncing about but still a shutter. So just another option to think about.

As soon as I build an electronic shutter release (not as simple as Nikon but quite easy) I'll have it running on my automated bench.

[Pau]

If your problem is already identified as motion blur, the best and less expensive way may be a new camera that don't induce any vibration.

As Ch. Krebs have demostrated an explained in his article, a canon whith live view is the surest approach.
It's enterely your option, but be aware than the cheapest Canon dslr (1000D) can do better avoiding vibration than any high end Nikon or Sony. Brand loyality is very convenient...for the makers, not so much for the consumers.

[Charles Krebs]

Ahhh, a civilized loyalty skirmish (what a nice bunch of people we have here)

As has been pointed out, you can do great work with most systems, you just need to be aware of the idiosyncrasies, and modify techniques accordingly.

A real key factor is whether or not electronic flash is an option (or perhaps preferred). If it is, then the advantage of Canon's EFSC is not a factor. If one prefers "continuous" light (or because of a microscope lighting configuration cannot effectively implement electronic flash) then the EFSC feature of some Canon bodies, is, quite frankly, a huge asset.

Continuous light versus flash is different argumen.... uhhh... discussion , but unless you have a flash system that provides accurate modeling lights, it is very nice to be able to see exactly the effect, say, of moving a light a fraction of an inch one way or another. No batteries/recycle to worry about, and generally more consistent exposures. (Doesn't matter what battery powered "speedlight" flash I use, there always seem to be at least a frame or two where I can see an exposure difference, although usually the stacking software handles it OK.)

[Charles Krebs]

oro,

It's hard to really compare to the shots on the web site you first referenced, but this last shot you posted here does appear to be better. The "texture" on the crystals looks well rendered. A little sharpening (generally needed anyway when resizing downward this much) would "complete" this nicely.

(A little noisy in the dark lower left background. PMax has a way of doing this. In cases like this it's easy to pick one frame (often the last in the stack) and use it to "retouch" a dark area like this that contains no detail).

[oro]

Just an update!

Its absolutely true that this last pic is better than those on my link.
Still, its not a solution on a long term, at least to me :-)

So I bought a D200, relatively cheap on Ebay from someone who told me the D200 was too complicated for him. I`ll study now those books that were attached into the parcel and will try my luck.
I`ll let you know when I start making pictures.

Thanks again!