Request for comments

[gypsey]

Hi all

This is my first attempt at uploading pics with a message, so I hope it works OK.

I have just started experimenting with macro and am not too happy with the results so I thought it would be a good idea to get some feedback from more knowledgeable people.
I would appreciate any comments from anyone.

My basic setup is Nikon D80 with StackShot and Micro Nikkor 105 f/2.8 with 2 SB200 units and a diffuser made from a translucent plastic dish.
The first 4 pics are 1:1 ISO 100 f/5.6 29 images at 0.2 intervals stacked with both Zerene and ZCP

The last 2 pics are 2:1 with a Minolta 50mm f/2.8 reversed on the front of the 105. ISO 160 f/6.3 - 111 images at .02mm intervals
They are all straight from the camera no PP

looking forward to your comments
thanks
gypsey


Stacked with CZP - Do stack


Stacked with CZP - Pyramoidal Max Contrast


Stacked with Zerene PMax


Stacked with Zerene DMap


Stacked with CZP Pyramoidal Max Contrast


Stacked with Zerene PMax

[Craig Gerard]

Gypsey,

These look good to me; but I can see your concerns in regard to improving the images.


gypsey wrote:

I have just started experimenting with macro and am not too happy with the results

Is it the clarity or 'sharpness' of the images that concern you?

Craig

[gypsey]

Thanks Craig

To choose between the two I would say sharpness, in particular the two at the higher magnification. I wonder what will happen when I try an even higher magnification.
Have you any suggestions as to the reason.
I believe that one needs to use an step interval of about 75% of the DOF. The problem is determinig the DOF for the particular lens combination that I am using. I decided that it was about .03mm so that is why I chose an interval of .02
I don't think I have a vibration problem. The rig is solidly mounted.

Regards
gypsey

[NikonUser]

Lighting on the background is even, very nice.

Lighting on the bee, not so good; in some of the images the back of the head and front of thorax too dark - no detail. Try different diffusers, a styrofoam cup works for me; or change angles of flashes.

On the high magn. it seems you have started to focus too far into the bee. The closest (to you) hairs are just mush, either not in focus or your stacked lens combination is not of sufficient quality to resolve these hairs. It's not a stacking software problem, ZS PMax can easily handle such hairs.

The 105mm Micro (non-reversed) can give sharp images at least up to 3.4x with extension. See my wasp image
HERE

[gypsey]

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated, I will have another go with the 2:1 extending the overall range.

In general terms looking at other posts lighting seems to be the one area with the most variability and if one has the time and patience the easiest and cheapest to modify, but this assumes that one has a satisfactory lens regarding which there seems to be no real consenus. Experimenting with countless alternatives is a pastime in itself for those who have adequate finacial resources. For the rest of us it would appear that it is necessary to determine what it is that one wants to do and find a good lens that can achieve that objective. I read that many who have gone to the trouble of testing a variety of lenses, finish up by saying that you can't really tell the difference in the end result.

So to get to the point. I am a little dubious about my presnt setup (50mm reversed on a 105 micro nikkor.
I have been looking at alternatives. I think that the 105 is fine, but mine is the G lens with no aperture ring so use with bellows is a problem. To use it with extension tubes doesn't help very much with magnification, so I have been thinking about an El-Nikkor with bellows, do you have any thoughts or experience on the pros and cons of the 50 or 63mm

gypsey

[NikonUser]

You wrote:
Experimenting with countless alternatives is a pastime in itself for those who have adequate finacial resources. For the rest of us ......

It's not a question of wealth, just a matter of choosing the right equipment for the job.

The StackShot is not cheap (I don't have one), a $100.00 Proxxon milling table is adequate for all but the highest magns.

I use an old MF Nikon 105 Micro that goes only to 0.5:1. My guess is that you could have got one S/H for less than what you paid for the G-type.

Who needs a 50mm lens to stack on the 105?

A single flash and a 2 cent styrofoam cup is cheap effective lighting.

[gypsey]

Thanks very much for your input NU much appreciated

gypsey

[Craig Gerard]

gypsie,

The EL-Nikkor 50mm/2.8 and 63mm are very good lenses when reverse-mounted. A bellows or an equivalent variable extension tube would be required. This would enable you to remove the 105mm from the equation. The Micro Nikkor 105mm could then be used as a standalone option when its abilities are required.

In regard to stacking or combining lenses; Rik wrote a detailed article on that approach. I'll find the post and provide the link. I thought it was in the FAQ's - if not it should be.

Craig

[ChrisR]

Just a thought - when you use the 50 on the 105, is the 105 focused at infinity? If not, try it.

I haven't tried reversing lenses for about 20 years so I can't remember, but I'm thinking that if the long lens is expecting rays from something close, and it's getting rays from infinity, via the 50mm lens, that could be a source of fuzz.

[gypsey]

Hi Craig

Thanks for that info.

I notice that the there seem to be more of the 50mm available than the 63.
I bid on a 63 the other day and I thought I had it cold my max bid was 40% higher than the highest bid, with 5 sec to go my max was topped. I shall have to improve my bidding technique.

I would appreciate the link to Rik's article. I find that there is enormous amount of information on this forum, but it is not always easy to find.

Regards

[gypsey]

Hi Chris


To be honest I am not absolutely sure, but I will try another set ensuring that it is and let you know whether it makes any difference.

Regards
gypsey

[rjlittlefield]

I would appreciate the link to Rik's article. I find that there is enormous amount of information on this forum, but it is not always easy to find.

I think the article you're looking for is Stopping down a lens combo.

The issues discussed there deal mainly with what happens away from image center, toward the edges of an image. The quick summary is that you probably need to be stopping down the front lens, not the rear, in order to get best quality from your combo.

What puzzles me with the images you have posted here is that they look soft even at image center. I'm not sure why that's happening. The Micro Nikkor 105 f/2.8 has a good reputation, but I'm a little worried about what "f/5.6" means. Some (all?) modern Nikon cameras set apertures in terms of effective f-number, with the magnification already bundled in. At 1:1, that would mean that you're using the f/2.8 lens wide open, which is almost certainly not its sharpest point.

One thing you should do is to run a series of test exposures to find what aperture gives you the sharpest individual frames. Then you can stack at that aperture to get whatever depth you need.

This may be the problem with the combo as well. If you are running that 50 mm f/2.8 wide open, then you're not using its best setting either. Something like f/8 on the front would be a better deal, thus giving you an effective aperture around f/16 (front lens setting * ratio of focal lengths).

Flash illumination makes motion blur unlikely, so at least that's one less thing to worry about.

Hope this helps!

--Rik

[Craig Gerard]

Yes, Rik, that is the article I was referring to.

gypsey wrote:

I bid on a 63 the other day and I thought I had it cold my max bid was 40% higher than the highest bid, with 5 sec to go my max was topped. I shall have to improve my bidding technique.

The EL-Nikkor 63mm are not as readily available as the 50mm/f2.8 and they usually sell at a reasonably high price, especially the older version, whereas, the 50mm/2.8 can be purchased at resonable prices most of the time. If purchasing a 50mm EL-Nikkor, be sure to get the 50mm f/2.8 (six elements) and not the 50mm f/4 (four elements).

Craig

[gypsey]

I would like to respond to all who have taken the trouble to respond to my initial request. Thanks to everyone.

1. Firstly a correction, the Minolta is a 1.7 not 2.8
2. with the combination, one cannot set the 105 on infinity as it will not focus, it has to be set at min.focus. At this focus the effective max aperture is 4.8 so in answer to Rik's comment 5.6 is stopped down a little.
3. The reference to Rik's previous posting 'stopping down a lens combo' is particularly enlightening. I can appreciate if not fully understand the theory, but as he says when referring to geometric distortions 'Again, not all combos will act this same way. It depends on details of the lenses.' this comment I am sure also applies to the optical aspects. Therefore the only way forward is to test different combinations of apertures with both lenses and see which gives the best results. A practical difficulty here is that the Minolta lens automatically closes when off the camera, so one has to wedge it open. I was originally advised to wedge it to fully open, which I do with a piece of metal solder 'wire'. It is easy to use different lengths of wire but I will not know the exact aperture.
4. If the results are still unsatisfactory, I will have to try an alternative.
Without being pessimistic, I bought last night on Ebay an El-Nikkor 50/2.8 (6 element) so there should be enough to keep me busy.
5. My 30 day trial for Zerene expired last night, but it looks pretty good. I have been comparing with ZCP and in most cases I got better resuls with Zerene and it was faster, and of course it does have the retouching feature, which I understand is to be improved 'shortly' with an undo function?

Regards
gypsey

[rjlittlefield]

...and of course it does have the retouching feature, which I understand is to be improved 'shortly' with an undo function?

Undo is always high on the list of things to add, but it keeps getting bumped by other issues and I've stopped speculating about dates. When somebody asks about undo, the standard response from support@zerenesystems.com (that's me) goes something like this:

The current version of Zerene Stacker does not provide an "undo" for retouching. The workaround I use is to select as input, the output image that I started from. Then painting over the error will restore the original appearance.

This works OK in most cases, though obviously it's not as quick and easy as control-Z.

The workaround becomes progressively less effective with complicated retouching jobs where there are multiple edits to the same area of the image. The best approach if that starts to become an issue is to commit retouching and save the project periodically, so that you don't actually have to make overlapping edits to any part of the image. The intermediate saved images can be removed from the project when no longer needed, by selecting them and File > Remove From List...

Getting back to basics, though, little or no retouching should be required with a subject like you're showing here. If you find yourself doing a lot of retouching, for example to remove those little "halo" blotches around the tongue in the DMap output, then I recommend playing some more with the contrast threshold slider to learn how its setting can minimize those.

--Rik