New guy questions

Just bought that first macro lens? Post here to get helpful feedback and answers to any questions you might have.

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HenryMudd
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:01 pm

New guy questions

Post by HenryMudd »

Hi there,

I am new to the forum. I have been taking macro photos for sometime but just discovered focus stacking software. WOW! I can’t believe how cool it is. I tested CombineZP, Helicon, and the one I have chosen to pay for Zerene.

My equipment is Nikon; D300, D700, 200 mm f/4, and a set of extension tubes.

I am also interested in snowflake photography and can’t wait until I can try the focus stacking trick on snowflakes.

My question is; Without getting into microscope territory, how can I optimize my results? Do I need a focusing rail? If so what kind? I have searched this forum, and elsewhere, and have read a lot about the Kirk, RRS, and Novoflex. I usually use the tripod mount on the lens. I already have RRS ball head and plates for my cameras and lenses.

I am also interested in the material I am reading about hand holding techniques. This has gotten me interested in a macro flash unit for my rig the Nikon R1.

Here are some photos that I have taken using this equipment and software.
http://lauritzengarden.shutterfly.com/

I am stunned by some of the images referenced on this site. Pretty amazing. I hope I can do half as well.

Larry
Omaha, NE
Larry

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Larry, welcome aboard!

For focus stacking, the key thing to think about is depth of field in any single frame. As a ballpark number, the DOF for a subject that is 20 mm wide is about 0.4 mm at the optimum aperture. If you stop down much farther hoping to get more DOF, the image gets fuzzy from diffraction. For smaller subjects, DOF shrinks quickly -- roughly in proportion to the square of the subject width. So, for a 10 mm subject you're looking at 0.1 mm; for a 5 mm subject, 0.025 mm; and for a 3 mm subject, 0.010 mm. Again, these are rough numbers, but they're in the right ballpark.

You can see that for things the size of a snowflake, the images in a focus stack have to be close together or you will get "focus banding".

Given the small numbers, I think it's pretty clear that you need some sort of mechanical assistance for controlling the lens-to-subject distance. It's not so clear whether you would be happier with a focus rail that moves the camera or a focus stage that moves the subject. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other. Many people use a focus stage borrowed from a microscope for small work on a bench, but also use a focus rail for larger work on a tripod.

I know that you've already read our FAQ: What's the best way to focus when stacking?. It may take a while to sort through all the options, though.

There's also a recent discussion on inexpensive focusing rails that may be very appropriate -- see HERE. The two-axis ("4-way") rail linked by jgknight is adequate for use down to roughly a 10 mm subject (step size 0.1 mm). Below that, you'll want something that's either screw-driven or geared way down, like a microscope focus block.

I hope this is helpful for making the next step. Hopefully some of our other members will jump in with suggestions also.

--Rik

ChrisLilley
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Joined: Sat May 01, 2010 6:12 am
Location: Nice, France (I'm British)

Post by ChrisLilley »

Larry,

Welcome to the forum. I also shoot Nikon equipment.

Since you mention using the tripod mount on your lens, would I be right in assuming that it is the Micro-Nikkor AF-D 200mm f/4 (rather than, say, the Nikkor 200m f/4 AIS, which has no tripod mount)?

I ask because you may have seen on this forum that people are using the Nikon 10x/0.25 1.5WD CFI microscope objective, mounted on the front of a lens. It gives the rated 10x magnification on a 200mm lens (and works too for around 5x on a 100 or 105mm lens), covering an APS-C sensor such as your D300. The 200/4 AIS has been tried; the 200/4 Micro-Nikkor has not, yet. But this may be something to consider, requiring the objective plus an adapter to 52mm filter plus a 52-62mm step-up adapter. (The microscope objective is not mounted on a microscope).

I agree with Rik that the first thing you will need is a focus rail. A StackShot is also worth considering. It has an arca-swiss style plate on the base, so would mount directly to your RRS ballhead; there is an (optional) top plate which is arca-swiss compatible also and would clamp onto the RRS plates or L-plates on your cameras. (I assume though that the plate on your Micro-Nikkor goes the other way).

The stackshot has a micro controller so that, once programmed for a particular stack, it takes all the shots for you. The latest version can also be controlled by Zerene Stacker via USB port.

I'm afraid I have no experience of the Nikon R1 or R1C1 system (or indeed much experience with the Nikon CLS; I use flashes in full manual mode) so can't advise you there.

HenryMudd
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:01 pm

Post by HenryMudd »

So for flowers, I would be okay to use focus adjustments, but for smaller things like snowflakes the focus slices are too small. This is consistant with my very limited experience so far.

Now my confusion is at least in part due to language. I don't know the meaning of;

focus banding (is that like color banding)
Nikon 10x/0.25 1.5 WD CFI

I looked briefly at the StackShot and it is out of my current price range. Also I would not be able to use it in the field if it must be attached to a computer. I tend to be more mobile than that, except for snowflakes, but those photos are taken in quite cold conditions that are also typically a little wet. I am not sure how I could protect a laptop under such conditions.

I will keep reading, and thanks for your time.
Larry

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

"Focus banding" refers to alternating sharp and blurred areas on the subject.

"Nikon 10x/0.25 1.5WD CFI" refers to a particular microscope objective. See HERE and HERE for some discussion and illustration of how this objective can be mounted and used on the front of a camera.

There is a slight typo in the description, should be 10.5WD. Translating the jargon...
  • Nikon is the brand.
  • 10x means 10-power magnification; 1 mm on subject becomes 10 mm on sensor (when used exactly as the lens designer intended).
  • 0.25 is the "numerical aperture" (NA). NA is a system for rating objectives that is analogous to f-number for camera lenses. A 10X NA 0.25 objective is roughly equivalent to a 20 mm f/1.8 macro lens, except that it's designed to run wide open, delivering very high resolution over a small field.
  • 10.5WD is the working distance, 10.5 mm from the front element.
  • CFI means "color free" and "infinite". "Color free" means that the objective is designed to have no lateral chromatic aberration. "Infinite" means that the objective is designed to be used in connection with some other lens to complete the image formation.
See FAQ: How can I hook a microscope objective to my camera? for more discussion.

The StackShot does not need to be attached to a computer. It has a hand-sized standalone controller with a few buttons and a small LCD screen. Driving it from a computer is an option that provides some additional features and allows to shoot a stack and process it at the same time (if desired).

--Rik

NikonUser
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Location: southern New Brunswick, Canada

Post by NikonUser »

Larry:
I'm a great fan of the Proxxon table; about $100.00
Can be used in the field with the Micro Nikon 200.
Doesn't look pretty but far better than the RRS rail.

Can't recall how fine a movement you can get with it, just search for Proxxon on this site and you will find all the ifo.

For now
SEE HERE
NU.
student of entomology
Quote – Holmes on ‘Entomology’
” I suppose you are an entomologist ? “
” Not quite so ambitious as that, sir. I should like to put my eyes on the individual entitled to that name.
No man can be truly called an entomologist,
sir; the subject is too vast for any single human intelligence to grasp.”
Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr
The Poet at the Breakfast Table.

Nikon camera, lenses and objectives
Olympus microscope and objectives

HenryMudd
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:01 pm

Post by HenryMudd »

Ah, thank you Rik. I understand the jargon a better now.

In answer to a previous question, my lens is the 200 mm f/4 macro.

I also have an older 55 mm f3.5, AIS AUTO. And as you might imagine a few others as well.

That ShotStacker looks really impressive. I have also done some water drop photography on my own and know how hard those are to catch, and so I am kind of interested in the ShotStopper too. Too bad they don't use the same controller.

Here is a link to a few I took.
http://waterdropandflowers.shutterfly.com/?role=-1


And some of my efforts on snowflakes;
http://snowflakeandfrost.shutterfly.com/?role=-1

And I really could have used the focus stacking technique when I took these;
http://mapleleaf1.shutterfly.com/?role=-1

Larry
Larry

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

ChrisLilley wrote:The 200/4 AIS has been tried; the 200/4 Micro-Nikkor has not, yet.
Chris, you're of course right, based on posted comparisons. However, I've lately been using the Nikkor 200mm f/4 micro extensively as a "tube lens" for decollimating infinite Mitutoyo objectives--though have not posted on it--and so far have found it pretty good. I was surprised by this, as the 200mm micro is, in my experience, not very good at infinity. I raised this question in a thread I can't find right now, in which Charlie Krebs responded by posting an image that looked pretty good, using the Nikon 200m micro as a tube lens. Subsequently, I've worked with my Mitutoyo objectives on my own copy of the Nikon 200mm micro lens, and have been pleased with the results. I'd love to test this tube-lens substitute against a Mitutoyo tube lens and against a standard Nikon 200mm telephoto, but have neither. Meanwhile, my sense is that the Nikon 200m f/4 micro is OK with Mitutoyo objectives.

Craig Gerard
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Post by Craig Gerard »

Chris S. wrote:Meanwhile, my sense is that the Nikon 200m f/4 micro is OK with Mitutoyo objectives.
Yes, they appear to play well together. FOV on the 50D (APS-C) with the Mitutoyo 5X = 4.5mm. CA negligible (if any); Distortion...can't see any; Sharpness....I need to have a closer look.

I'll be able to compare it with the dedicated Nikon tubelense when it arrives and possibly a Mitutoyo tubelense if that mystery piece I have coming has one onboard.

Craig
To use a classic quote from 'Antz' - "I almost know exactly what I'm doing!"

Chris S.
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Post by Chris S. »

Craig Gerard wrote:I'll be able to compare it (Nikon 200 micro) with the dedicated Nikon tubelens when it arrives and possibly a Mitutoyo tubelens if that mystery piece I have coming has one onboard.
Craig, I greatly look forward to that comparison. And I hope your mystery piece does indeed have a Mitutoyo tube lens in it, and that you find it possible to tease it out--which I've heard is difficult.

Cheers,

--Chris

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