Hi everyone,
I'd like to replace my Nikon U20 0.33 (metallographic objective, iris equipped) with a Nikon 20x ELWD/SLWD.
Examining some Nikon lists (Nikon infinity-corrected brightfield objective lenses for Optiophot series), I have found too much 20x with long WD!!!
+ CF ELWD Plan EPI 20x Achromat Obj 0.40 - WD: 11.0mm
+ CF SLWD Plan EPI 20x Achromat Obj 0.35 - WD: 20.5mm
+ CF BD ELWD Plan 20x Achromat Obj 0.40 - WD: 11.0mm
+ CF BD/DIC ELWD Plan 20x Achromat Obj 0.40 - WD: 11.0mm
+ M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective 0.40 - WD: 10.5mm
+ M-Plan 20x SLWD Brightfield Objective 0.35 - WD: 19.9mm
Do anyone knows the differences between them? Are they all in RMS traditional mount?
Naturally, I'd like to use it without eyepiece, on a bellows (instead of a Photar 12.5, obtaining more resolution and longer WD).
The CF SLWD Plan EPI 20x 0.35 and the M-Plan 20x SLWD 0.35 have about 20mm of WD (that make much easyer lighting), but the CF BD/DIC ELWD Plan 20x 0.40 and the M-Plan 20x ELWD 0.40 (with about 11mm of WD) have higher NA.
Which do you suggest?
Thanks and Ciao
P.S. If I decide to sell my Nikon U20, how much is it worth?
Nikon 20x for high magnification photography
Moderators: rjlittlefield, ChrisR, Chris S., Pau
I'll post a quick reply, although I know far more knowledgeable people will be along to give you more info later!
I think you should avoid infinity corrected objectives, these tend to not work as well as they require an additional correction lens to be in the light path. You will not be able to source one of these easily and unless you have the correct microscope body are unlikely to be able to use one anyway...
Also I think ideally avoid the BD objectives, although I could be wrong on that!
Consensus here seems to say look for the Nikon CF Plan 20x ELWD, not infinity corrected, not BD. (But don't buy-it-now, please wait for another poster like Charles or Rik to come along and confirm, I'm far from an expert on these things!!)
A quick question of my own for follow up posts. EPI is some sort of microscope illumination isn't it? Epifluourescence or something? In which case can EPI objectives be used in a simple microscope setup like mine, with conventional lighting, or will the fact the objective is optimised for a different light cause any issues?
I think you should avoid infinity corrected objectives, these tend to not work as well as they require an additional correction lens to be in the light path. You will not be able to source one of these easily and unless you have the correct microscope body are unlikely to be able to use one anyway...
Also I think ideally avoid the BD objectives, although I could be wrong on that!
Consensus here seems to say look for the Nikon CF Plan 20x ELWD, not infinity corrected, not BD. (But don't buy-it-now, please wait for another poster like Charles or Rik to come along and confirm, I'm far from an expert on these things!!)
A quick question of my own for follow up posts. EPI is some sort of microscope illumination isn't it? Epifluourescence or something? In which case can EPI objectives be used in a simple microscope setup like mine, with conventional lighting, or will the fact the objective is optimised for a different light cause any issues?
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Planapo
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Laurie, yes "epi-" meaning on, upon, over. In this case, and to my knowledge, it means that epi-objectives are especially for use with incident illumination that is used mostly for non-transparent objects to be investigated.
For this purpose at least some of these epi-objectives allow to send light through the objective itself, directed upon the specimen.
But as I have never used epi-objectives myself, I am not sure, if "conventional lighting", that I understand as transmitted lighting, will have an effect on image quality when used with an epi-objective.
--Betty
edit: Added last sentence.
For this purpose at least some of these epi-objectives allow to send light through the objective itself, directed upon the specimen.
But as I have never used epi-objectives myself, I am not sure, if "conventional lighting", that I understand as transmitted lighting, will have an effect on image quality when used with an epi-objective.
--Betty
edit: Added last sentence.
Last edited by Planapo on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
OK Betty, but I suppose they require a special lighting system mounted on a specific microscope. Therefore not usable on a simpe bellows.Planapo wrote:
...For this purpose at least some of these epi-objectives allow to send light through the objective itself, directed upon the specimen....
So the choice contracts to these objectives:
+ CF BD ELWD Plan 20x Achromat Obj 0.40 - WD: 11.0mm
+ CF BD/DIC ELWD Plan 20x Achromat Obj 0.40 - WD: 11.0mm
+ M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective 0.40 - WD: 10.5mm
+ M-Plan 20x SLWD Brightfield Objective 0.35 - WD: 19.9mm
Toni
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Planapo
- Posts: 1581
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:33 am
- Location: Germany, in the United States of Europe
Right Toni, for sending the light through the barrel of the epi-objective a special lighting system that feeds the light into the rear of the objective has to be mounted.
But I am not sure why one should exclude epi-objectives from use with bellows, as one doesn´t necessarily have to use this special lighting method with epi-objectives. One could light with fiber illumination or flash as well, couldn´t one? Or would that cause more trouble, like flare e. g., with an epi-objective than with an objective normally used with transmitted light on the scope?
Let´s hear what our more experienced objective-on-bellows users will say.
--Betty
But I am not sure why one should exclude epi-objectives from use with bellows, as one doesn´t necessarily have to use this special lighting method with epi-objectives. One could light with fiber illumination or flash as well, couldn´t one? Or would that cause more trouble, like flare e. g., with an epi-objective than with an objective normally used with transmitted light on the scope?
Let´s hear what our more experienced objective-on-bellows users will say.
--Betty
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Greetings Toni, and welcome!
A quick answer...
The objective that seems to best fit your needs is:
Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective
Nikon Part #78775, WD=10.5mm
This is NOT an "infinity" corrected objective. It was designed for a tube length of 210mm.
(After I have some coffee and wake up I'll try to add more to this reply
)
A quick answer...
The objective that seems to best fit your needs is:
Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective
Nikon Part #78775, WD=10.5mm
This is NOT an "infinity" corrected objective. It was designed for a tube length of 210mm.
(After I have some coffee and wake up I'll try to add more to this reply
)http://www.labx.com/v2/adsearch/detail3 ... umb=372919
Here is a 40x ELWD MPlan metallurgical opening at $250. Tubelength
is 210mm.
I have not done business with this seller who is new to LabX.com
I have been a subscriber to the site since it opened almost ten years ago.
Slightly off topic but close.
Gene
Here is a 40x ELWD MPlan metallurgical opening at $250. Tubelength
is 210mm.
I have not done business with this seller who is new to LabX.com
I have been a subscriber to the site since it opened almost ten years ago.
Slightly off topic but close.
Gene
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Toni,
Some more info...
FWIW... The focal length of the Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD (210mm tube length, finite) is 11.1mm.
If you have not seen it yet check out this thread:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5339
“Infinity” corrected objectives are made to be used with a “tube lens” (an additional lens placed some distance behind the objective). Without this “tube lens” you can still get an image with an “infinity” objective on a bellows but they are definitely not designed to be used that way, and frankly I don’t know what the effects would be on image quality.
If you really want to use an “infinity” objective, you could come up with an arrangement using the proper tube lens, but it would add considerable cost and some complexity to your set-up. Also, if you are willing to work with an “infinity” objective there are additional manufacturers to consider. Mitutoyo has an extensive line of superb long working distance Plan Apo objectives. They are very expensive, but do tend to show up used regularly, and on occasion a good deal can be found. (But I’ve only seen one tube lens sold on eBay over the last few years. New Mitutoyo tube lenses are about $500-$600). These (Mitutoyo) are large objectives with a 26 x 0.706mm (36 TPI) mounting thread.
The Nikon CF M Plans (210mm tube length, finite) have worked very nicely on bellows. The 20/0.40 ELWD is my favorite. The brightfield versions have the "standard" RMS thread. The BD (brightfield/darkfield) versions usually have the same optics but the mount is larger (not RMS). In the BD’s there is a “cylinder” around the optics with reflectors at the end. This allows light from the microscope’s vertical illuminator to pass around the objective and create darkfield illumination on the subject. The end reflectors often extend slightly beyond the front lens, effectively making the working distance shorter than the non-BD version. If you get a good deal on a BD version it is not difficult to remove the part of the barrel that extends out front (not really necessary, but it will then have the same working distance as the brightfield version). You would still need to accommodate the larger mounting thread, and you need to block the open “cylinder” that would allow light to enter the bellows from around the objective. The brightfield versions have the RMS thread and are therefore easier to set up on a bellows.
The “CF” ("chromatic-aberration-free") designation is important! This is the designation Nikon uses for objectives designed to be used without additional chromatic correction in eyepieces. (It does not mean these are Apo corrected objectives. They are still considered "achromatic" unless specifically marked as "Apo"). There are older M Plans that are not “CF” and were designed to be used with corrective eyepieces. Unfortunately most of the “CF” M Plans (210mm tube length) were not marked as “CF” but they can be readily recognized by the mount.
The pictures below show a “CF” 210mm style mount (on left), and an older non-CF style. (There were also some even newer style "210mm finite" M Plans that were made just before Nikon went to "infinity" objectives).
Here is a picture of a BD mount. You can see the “cylinder” around the optics that allows light to reach the subject for epi-darkfield illumination.
There is a pretty good chart of "infinity" and "finite" CF M Plans here:
http://www.optotek.net/Microscope_Inven ... tives.html
Some more info...
FWIW... The focal length of the Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD (210mm tube length, finite) is 11.1mm.
If you have not seen it yet check out this thread:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5339
“Infinity” corrected objectives are made to be used with a “tube lens” (an additional lens placed some distance behind the objective). Without this “tube lens” you can still get an image with an “infinity” objective on a bellows but they are definitely not designed to be used that way, and frankly I don’t know what the effects would be on image quality.
If you really want to use an “infinity” objective, you could come up with an arrangement using the proper tube lens, but it would add considerable cost and some complexity to your set-up. Also, if you are willing to work with an “infinity” objective there are additional manufacturers to consider. Mitutoyo has an extensive line of superb long working distance Plan Apo objectives. They are very expensive, but do tend to show up used regularly, and on occasion a good deal can be found. (But I’ve only seen one tube lens sold on eBay over the last few years. New Mitutoyo tube lenses are about $500-$600). These (Mitutoyo) are large objectives with a 26 x 0.706mm (36 TPI) mounting thread.
The Nikon CF M Plans (210mm tube length, finite) have worked very nicely on bellows. The 20/0.40 ELWD is my favorite. The brightfield versions have the "standard" RMS thread. The BD (brightfield/darkfield) versions usually have the same optics but the mount is larger (not RMS). In the BD’s there is a “cylinder” around the optics with reflectors at the end. This allows light from the microscope’s vertical illuminator to pass around the objective and create darkfield illumination on the subject. The end reflectors often extend slightly beyond the front lens, effectively making the working distance shorter than the non-BD version. If you get a good deal on a BD version it is not difficult to remove the part of the barrel that extends out front (not really necessary, but it will then have the same working distance as the brightfield version). You would still need to accommodate the larger mounting thread, and you need to block the open “cylinder” that would allow light to enter the bellows from around the objective. The brightfield versions have the RMS thread and are therefore easier to set up on a bellows.
The “CF” ("chromatic-aberration-free") designation is important! This is the designation Nikon uses for objectives designed to be used without additional chromatic correction in eyepieces. (It does not mean these are Apo corrected objectives. They are still considered "achromatic" unless specifically marked as "Apo"). There are older M Plans that are not “CF” and were designed to be used with corrective eyepieces. Unfortunately most of the “CF” M Plans (210mm tube length) were not marked as “CF” but they can be readily recognized by the mount.
The pictures below show a “CF” 210mm style mount (on left), and an older non-CF style. (There were also some even newer style "210mm finite" M Plans that were made just before Nikon went to "infinity" objectives).
Here is a picture of a BD mount. You can see the “cylinder” around the optics that allows light to reach the subject for epi-darkfield illumination.
There is a pretty good chart of "infinity" and "finite" CF M Plans here:
http://www.optotek.net/Microscope_Inven ... tives.html
Thank you very much, Charles.
I'm very happy to find that I'm not "lonely" in what I do!
For several years I have tried to get high magnification without using a traditional composite microscope.
Now, after a lot of attempt, I have selected these lenses:
Nikon Macro-Nikkor 65mm f/4.5
Canon 35mm f/2.8 (I don't know how, but my sample is outstanding..)
Nikon U10x 0.22 (for metallographic microscope, iris equipped...an excellent performer with 15mm of WD)
So, now I need a 10mm/20x objective and I suppose that a very good 20x outperforms clearly the Photar 12.5mm (like the U10 outperforms the Luminar 16/2.5). I already have the Nikon U20 0.33, but I think that I can find a better one.
The "infinity-objectives" question is clear. I supposed that an infinity corrected objective don't need a precise tube lenght and it would be used with every bellows-extension. But now I have understood that it needs a specific "intermediate optic". Well!
Now I have to find a Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective n. 78775, WD=10.5mm. I'll use it on my "macroscope", an ancient customized Leitz SM "black finished" that you can see below. But how much should it cost (used and in perfect conditions)?
I have visited your site and...I was dumbfounded: your shoots are wonderful. Technically perfect and aesthetically exciting. Now that I think about it, I have already seen your wonderful pics in the Nikon Small Word Galleries. Congratulations!
Thank you very much for your incomparable help...
Toni
I'm very happy to find that I'm not "lonely" in what I do!
For several years I have tried to get high magnification without using a traditional composite microscope.
Now, after a lot of attempt, I have selected these lenses:
Nikon Macro-Nikkor 65mm f/4.5
Canon 35mm f/2.8 (I don't know how, but my sample is outstanding..)
Nikon U10x 0.22 (for metallographic microscope, iris equipped...an excellent performer with 15mm of WD)
So, now I need a 10mm/20x objective and I suppose that a very good 20x outperforms clearly the Photar 12.5mm (like the U10 outperforms the Luminar 16/2.5). I already have the Nikon U20 0.33, but I think that I can find a better one.
The "infinity-objectives" question is clear. I supposed that an infinity corrected objective don't need a precise tube lenght and it would be used with every bellows-extension. But now I have understood that it needs a specific "intermediate optic". Well!
Now I have to find a Nikon CF M-Plan 20x ELWD Brightfield Objective n. 78775, WD=10.5mm. I'll use it on my "macroscope", an ancient customized Leitz SM "black finished" that you can see below. But how much should it cost (used and in perfect conditions)?
I have visited your site and...I was dumbfounded: your shoots are wonderful. Technically perfect and aesthetically exciting. Now that I think about it, I have already seen your wonderful pics in the Nikon Small Word Galleries. Congratulations!
Thank you very much for your incomparable help...
Toni
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Joseph S. Wisniewski
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:53 pm
- Location: Detroit, Michigan
Thank you Joseph,
I'll try soon. But do this happen also wiht the newer Captures (NX and NX2)?
However, I think that it will be great to use on my macroscope an EVIL camera (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lenses) like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1, without shutter vibrations and with a fully functional "Live view" (to split on a good CRT Monitor).
Now I'm sending to you a PM relative to NIkon U10 and U20.
Thanx and Ciao
Toni
I'll try soon. But do this happen also wiht the newer Captures (NX and NX2)?
However, I think that it will be great to use on my macroscope an EVIL camera (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lenses) like the Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1, without shutter vibrations and with a fully functional "Live view" (to split on a good CRT Monitor).
Now I'm sending to you a PM relative to NIkon U10 and U20.
Thanx and Ciao
Toni
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Joseph S. Wisniewski
- Posts: 128
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:53 pm
- Location: Detroit, Michigan
You're welcome Toni...
In NX and NX2, Nikon split the "tethered shooting" function (which gives you the exposure meter) off into a separate program called "Camera Control NX". Nikon Capture 4 was the last version where the camera control was part of the Nikon Capture package.
There's a 30 day free trial of Camera Control you can download from the Nikon support site.
As far as I know, the G1 sensor isn't capable of electronic shutter, so it still has a mechanical shutter. Which still leaves Canon 40D as the number one camera for microscopes, since it has liveview to eliminate mirror vibration and the "electronic first curtain" sensor to eliminate half of the shutter vibration.
In NX and NX2, Nikon split the "tethered shooting" function (which gives you the exposure meter) off into a separate program called "Camera Control NX". Nikon Capture 4 was the last version where the camera control was part of the Nikon Capture package.
There's a 30 day free trial of Camera Control you can download from the Nikon support site.
As far as I know, the G1 sensor isn't capable of electronic shutter, so it still has a mechanical shutter. Which still leaves Canon 40D as the number one camera for microscopes, since it has liveview to eliminate mirror vibration and the "electronic first curtain" sensor to eliminate half of the shutter vibration.
Yes Joseph, you are right! I was wrong saying that with the G1 you have no shutter vibrations. Infact, you only spare the mirror slap without using a specific function of "mirror up".Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:...
As far as I know, the G1 sensor isn't capable of electronic shutter, so it still has a mechanical shutter. Which still leaves Canon 40D as the number one camera for microscopes, since it has liveview to eliminate mirror vibration and the "electronic first curtain" sensor to eliminate half of the shutter vibration....
But what is really new and very interesting for me is to gain knowledge of the "electronic first curtain" of the Eos 40/50D e 5MKII...
Very very useful. I use habitually Nikon bodies (D70s and D2x) and I didn't know this function.
But as far as you know, has also Nikon D300/90 a similar function related to Live View? This would be a very important feature.
Thanx again
Ciao
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Charles Krebs
- Posts: 5865
- Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 pm
- Location: Issaquah, WA USA
- Contact:
Toni,
Love your set-up! (Those older black microscope stands are so beautiful)
I've tried similar things in the past but several things frustrated me. The primary difficulty was due to the vibration inherent in a SLR's operation. It can be overcome using "open shutter" exposure techniques, but sometimes that is not too convenient.
I too was initially interested in the Panasonic G-1 for this use, but (as Joseph just mentioned)... from:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0810/08100 ... erview.asp
I use both Canon and Nikon about equally, so I'm not pushing one over the other... but (echoing what Joseph just posted) the electronic first shutter (live view, "silent mode") of the Canon 40D, 50D (and upcoming 5D II) offers some real advantages. I tried it briefly. See:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5006
I did not have one long enough to really test a full range of shutter speeds. But it certainly eliminated any noticeable vibration issues at shutter speeds of 1/60 and slower. I would need to test at faster shutter speeds to see how much (if any) effect the mechanical second shutter curtain might have since at the higher speeds it is "traveling" for nearly the entire expose.
You can get the 40D "White Paper" here:
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller ... fromTips=1
see bottom of page 14, top of page 15 for some info on the electronic first shutter curtain.
Love your set-up! (Those older black microscope stands are so beautiful)
I've tried similar things in the past but several things frustrated me. The primary difficulty was due to the vibration inherent in a SLR's operation. It can be overcome using "open shutter" exposure techniques, but sometimes that is not too convenient.
I too was initially interested in the Panasonic G-1 for this use, but (as Joseph just mentioned)... from:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0810/08100 ... erview.asp
So you will actually get a two mechanical shutter curtain "actions" as the exposure starts with this camera.So do you use any kind of electronic shuttering such as an electronic 'first curtain'?
"No, at this point in time this isn't possible with this particular sensor. On the G1 the shutter closes when you press the button, then opens and closes again. This is, of course, something we will be investigating in future developments."
I use both Canon and Nikon about equally, so I'm not pushing one over the other... but (echoing what Joseph just posted) the electronic first shutter (live view, "silent mode") of the Canon 40D, 50D (and upcoming 5D II) offers some real advantages. I tried it briefly. See:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5006
I did not have one long enough to really test a full range of shutter speeds. But it certainly eliminated any noticeable vibration issues at shutter speeds of 1/60 and slower. I would need to test at faster shutter speeds to see how much (if any) effect the mechanical second shutter curtain might have since at the higher speeds it is "traveling" for nearly the entire expose.
You can get the 40D "White Paper" here:
http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller ... fromTips=1
see bottom of page 14, top of page 15 for some info on the electronic first shutter curtain.
Hi Charles,
I've seen your pics of butterfly wing scales http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5006 : simply stunning!!! You are capable to obtain what I dream from many years. My whole-hearted congratulations.
I come from telephotography and birds photography http://www.tonipuma.it/animalia/index.html and I have a big number of hard-fought Nikkor lenses. So, to buy now a Canon 40/50D body would be "not cost-effective". What a pity!
I HAVE to wait for a new Nikon body adapt to me.
My Nikon D2x has both "Mirror up" and "Delayed Release", but it is too much heavy, and my Nikon D70s is what it is.
But first of all I have to purchase a not cheap Nikon M-Plan 20x.
Thanx again and again congratulations!
Ciao
Toni
I've seen your pics of butterfly wing scales http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... php?t=5006 : simply stunning!!! You are capable to obtain what I dream from many years. My whole-hearted congratulations.
I come from telephotography and birds photography http://www.tonipuma.it/animalia/index.html and I have a big number of hard-fought Nikkor lenses. So, to buy now a Canon 40/50D body would be "not cost-effective". What a pity!
I HAVE to wait for a new Nikon body adapt to me.
My Nikon D2x has both "Mirror up" and "Delayed Release", but it is too much heavy, and my Nikon D70s is what it is.
But first of all I have to purchase a not cheap Nikon M-Plan 20x.
Thanx again and again congratulations!
Ciao
Toni