basics of vibration control w/ copy stand?

Just bought that first macro lens? Post here to get helpful feedback and answers to any questions you might have.

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Aenima
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basics of vibration control w/ copy stand?

Post by Aenima »

Hi guys

Have been struggling with a standard macro setup - mostly vibration/movement and positioning both lens and subject properly among other things. I'm not handy enough to DIY a decent macro studio... :P
So i've kinda come full circle back to the microscope - as i've been using it for photomicro stuff - (water drops with amoeba, tardigrades etc. ) - but recently found i can get something approaching useable results in macro via the microscope - fine focus for stacking and a ping pong ball diffuser. LED lamp.

This still suffers vibration though, as the DSLR is attached to the trinocular.

So my question is, with the above in mind, and now i have a copy stand in the works, how should i set it up? any tips?

Does the microscope go on the wooden base of the copy-stand? put something on the base like rubber mat or similar?
i mean, i can feel the camera shudder on the table top that the scope's on, with it attached direct to the trinocular, so will this vibration go through the copy stand and affect the image despite the separation?
How much difference should i expect for comparison?

I know a certain amount will be try-it-and-see, but i'm just wondering what the best/usual approach is.

Thanks for any insight/info
Last edited by Aenima on Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

If the camera is the source of the vibration, can you use Live View or a mirrorless camera?

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

thanks Lou, i do already use live view but with the 1200D the shutter still kicks the scope quite a bit, and it's enough to move the subject around especially when shooting water drop pond critters.

I notice a lot of ppl use copy stands to separate the camera which prompted the post :)

Lou Jost
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Post by Lou Jost »

I don't know that camera; I guess there is no silent shutter option?

One thing that could reduce the effect of camera-caused vibrations is a large increase in the effective mass of the set-up. More mass = less movement per impulse. Maybe a granite block on top of the copy stand?

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Aenima, yes, the classic solution to DSLR mirror/shutter vibration is to mount the camera on a copy stand, positioned over the trinocular port, with an air gap between them for isolation.

See for example http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/ .

--Rik

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

rjlittlefield wrote:Aenima, yes, the classic solution to DSLR mirror/shutter vibration is to mount the camera on a copy stand, positioned over the trinocular port, with an air gap between them for isolation.

See for example http://www.krebsmicro.com/microsetup2/ .

--Rik
thanks Rik, yeah i finally found and received an affordable copy stand today - i just wasn't sure in the pics i've seen that i had it right. I keep looking at the pics of similar setups, but some aspects still puzzled me, god knows why :P should be straightforward - but i appreciate the confirmation.

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Aenima wrote:some aspects still puzzled me, god knows why :P should be straightforward
It is the same way for me, despite 50+ years in this field. I suggest embracing the puzzlement -- it makes life more pleasant! :)

If you're using a projection eyepiece, then be aware that you have to get the right spacing of eyepiece and camera, in order to get best image quality and to be parfocal between camera and visual eyepieces. Use with projection eyepiece is still sensitive to camera vibration before/during the exposure, because lateral movement of the camera causes the image to move across the sensor.

An alternative approach is to use an "afocal" setup, with a lens on the camera focused at infinity and an ordinary eyepiece in the trinoc port. This sort of setup is much less sensitive to vibration, because lateral movement of the camera does not cause the image to move across the sensor.

--Rik

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

thank you - yeah that's good to know, and a good idea - besides, with afocal I might actually get the full field in view rather than just the center portion that I currently get using the NFK2.5X prj ep :P

I do like the nfk2.5x for quality but not the amount of enlargement. But of course the more suited proj ep {for crop sensor} is the expensive one that is quite hard to come by.

Anyhow, ive just set up the stand, and come across the problem you mentioned - i.e. the camera itself now has a wobble that greatly reduces this copy-stand's usefulness {for my intended purpose, anyway} @-@ didn't see that coming, haha :P

always something isn't there? :D Im so glad it wasn't an expensive stand

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

oh cool - a bit of weight on the top of the column seems to work, per Lou's suggestion :) getting
there slowly but surely, which seems to be my usual pace :D

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

oh well :P

With the slight wobble of the camera when attached to the copy stand it has effectively 'made up for' any reduction in vibration I might have gained by detaching the camera :/

Seems about the same amount of blur whichever way I use it, even with a huge 5k weight on the copy stand column.

Until I figure out a way to stabilise the copy stand, I may as well go back to the Olympus adapter on the trinocular again. At least that way my camera is the right orientation for watching the screen and adjusting the X-Y stage..


Back to the drawing board, as they say. /edit; I do still have the lens and eyepiece option to try - its a good idea - will have to give it a bash :)

Alan Wood
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Post by Alan Wood »

With a Canon EOS 1200D and Live View, there should not be any movement or vibration because Silent Mode is automatically turned on. The mirror is already up and the shutter curtain is already open, and the exposure is started electronically, so there shouldn't be any vibration until the end of the exposure when the shutter curtain closes.

Have you tried using the EOS Utility software on the CDs that came with your camera? The camera is connected via USB and controlled from the computer, so you have a nice big image for focusing and composition, and you can easily adjust exposure and white balance. When the image is visible on your computer screen, you can be certain that you really are using Live View.

Alan Wood

Pau
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Post by Pau »

Just to point few aspects of the excellent advice you already had got

- With LV your camera will vibrate quite a lot (mirror and shutter) after the exposure end, so it will not blur the image but it effectively could disturb the subject between shots (at least if it works like other Canon Rebel series models)

- You can use eyepiece projection with the camera mounted in a copy stand, like in the linked Krebs' setup

- About afocal photomicrography, take a look at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=15607
Pau

Aenima
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Post by Aenima »

Cool. awesome info - Many thanks for the replies -- A few of the things Alan and Pau have added definitely help to reassure me that what i'm doing is along the right lines :) i wasn't sure about that.

So yeah, i'm using live view on the 1200D with canon utilities (very handy program!) - i'm relieved you confirm this as a viable approach, thank you - also about the 'silent shutter' mode being automatically on while in L.V. .. i think it might be working that way, now you explain it, as there is a slight 'swish' when triggered followed by the 'click-clunk' of the mirror. :)
So, am i right in thinking the separation of the camera in this case might not be a huge improvement over the olympus photo 'L' adapter and a solid connection (besides disturbance of the sample)?

Another question i have is about the length of exposure when trying to reduce vibration - i 'think' i recall seeing someone on the forum saying to adjust the lighting to make the exposure longer, 1 sec or thereabouts to make the wobble only a small part of the exposure - so i did just that, and am shooting 1 second exposures with continuous lighting in the absence of decent flash or rock solid camera attachment.
So far 1sec 'seems' to be okay - for macro work using the microscope - and i havent strayed from it. - but is 1sec enough to let it settle? or am i just giving the wobbles more exposure time in which to blur the image?


Huge thanks for the info/advice

Deanimator
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Post by Deanimator »

Aenima wrote:Cool. awesome info - Many thanks for the replies -- A few of the things Alan and Pau have added definitely help to reassure me that what i'm doing is along the right lines :) i wasn't sure about that.

So yeah, i'm using live view on the 1200D with canon utilities (very handy program!) - i'm relieved you confirm this as a viable approach, thank you - also about the 'silent shutter' mode being automatically on while in L.V. .. i think it might be working that way, now you explain it, as there is a slight 'swish' when triggered followed by the 'click-clunk' of the mirror. :)
So, am i right in thinking the separation of the camera in this case might not be a huge improvement over the olympus photo 'L' adapter and a solid connection (besides disturbance of the sample)?

Another question i have is about the length of exposure when trying to reduce vibration - i 'think' i recall seeing someone on the forum saying to adjust the lighting to make the exposure longer, 1 sec or thereabouts to make the wobble only a small part of the exposure - so i did just that, and am shooting 1 second exposures with continuous lighting in the absence of decent flash or rock solid camera attachment.
So far 1sec 'seems' to be okay - for macro work using the microscope - and i havent strayed from it. - but is 1sec enough to let it settle? or am i just giving the wobbles more exposure time in which to blur the image?


Huge thanks for the info/advice
I was having similar issues with just a camera and a reverse prime or an objective on bellows.

I live across the street from an interstate highway, plus my living room floor is very unstable.

I also went with very long exposures when using Jansjos. I get much better results with my Amazon Basics flashes, but I do sometimes get black frames when they don't trigger.

Last week I punted and bought a couple of Flashpoint wireless strobes. Even using just one, my results have been MUCH better.

ChrisR
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Post by ChrisR »

I live in urban London. The ground floor is "suspended" ie boards. I found a Nikon copy stand to be usable to about 1:1 only - as long as I didn't breathe.

Squishy mountings topped with a graniite slab under the stand help a lot, but expanded Live View still shows significant movement.
Chris R

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