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Beyond scanner/copier lenses...

 
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Beatsy



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 1194
Location: Malvern, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

I'm really having a blast with the scanner lenses I got recently. I'm knocking out stacks at much faster rate (bigger steps, fewer images, less retouching, more working space, etc, etc, etc) and getting some of the best quality and resolution I've ever seen in the 1.2x-2.6x mag range. I should be content, right? Hah! I've got far too much momentum going to stop looking for even better ones...! Smile

In browsing some industrial options, I came across this one from the Nikon Rayfact line. It's 116mm f/2.5 with 2x-5x magnification. They've been discussed in this forum a few times, but little in depth that I could find.

http://www.tochigi-nikon.co.jp/en/products/lens/2-5variable.htm

I know it will cost thousands (and thousands) and possibly has some relation to El Nikkor and Printing Nikkors (made in the same place?) but I wondered if the specs beat the Nikkors?

What struck me first was the NA of 0.168 at 5x wide open (NA0.171 for the "prism" version). That beats a 5x Mitty (NA 0.14) with a huge image circle of 86.4mm and a working distance of 79mm too!

Could you reduce the image circle (and hence the magnification) simply by reducing the flange to image distance? Or by some other means (e.g. focal reducer)? If so, dropped by (say) half, the lens would cover FF perfectly with a top-end mag of 2.5x at NA 0.17-ish. That seem pretty good to me. Is it?
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Justwalking



Joined: 10 Jun 2018
Posts: 12
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Very expensive.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34619&highlight=rayfact
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Beatsy



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 1194
Location: Malvern, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Justwalking wrote:
Very expensive.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34619&highlight=rayfact

Thanks for that. For some reason, that didn't show in my search. Test linked from within the article you linked

http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34619&highlight=rayfact

Yum! Big, heavy and loooong, but wow - it is good! Just need to find $17k laying around somewhere now Smile

Edit: you changed your link as I was typing, so we've got the same one now. I'll leave it as is
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Justwalking



Joined: 10 Jun 2018
Posts: 12
Location: Russia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Yes, my previous link was incorrect to direct path.
May be such price is good for large output circle, but you can find many times cheaper industry scanner lenses for adequate size sensor.
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Macro_Cosmos



Joined: 15 Jan 2018
Posts: 78
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The user "nathanm" posted some photos of his setup and test samples of this lens. It has insane resolution and an NA dial to optimise for different magnifications. This clever design is found on many industrial lenses designed to cover a larger range of magnifications. (ie. Macro Varon)

Regarding to reducing magnifications. Such lenses are designed to work well within its specification, they could perform abysmally bad outside. I personally think focus reducers are the way to go. I've seen a comparison of extending the mitty 10x to 20x using 2 methods: via extension and using a teleconverter. If I can find it, we may draw some conclusions there. I'm going to guess the former yields better IQ. Generally, teleconverters do not consider macro use, which imposes a larger challeng on resolution.

It will ultimately depend on focus reducer you use. Most on the consumer market are poor quality, the corners suffer a lot. If one has $20k (yeah... this will not cost thousands and thousands, we're lacking a zero here) laying around, I'd suggest getting a focal reducer specifically made for the lens. Focal reducers are relatively common in the field of astro.

Vignetting wouldn't be an issue here luckily, the Rayfact has an image circle of 86mm.

Adding to above, if one has $20k for such a lens, one certainly has enough to invest in a digital back with a specialised bellows system.

(Found the link in my bookmarks: http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34619&highlight=rayfact)
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 670
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Beatsy wrote:
I'm really having a blast with the scanner lenses I got recently. I'm knocking out stacks at much faster rate (bigger steps, fewer images, less retouching, more working space, etc, etc, etc) and getting some of the best quality and resolution I've ever seen in the 1.2x-2.6x mag range. I should be content, right? Hah! I've got far too much momentum going to stop looking for even better ones...! Smile

In browsing some industrial options, I came across this one from the Nikon Rayfact line. It's 116mm f/2.5 with 2x-5x magnification. They've been discussed in this forum a few times, but little in depth that I could find.

http://www.tochigi-nikon.co.jp/en/products/lens/2-5variable.htm

I know it will cost thousands (and thousands) and possibly has some relation to El Nikkor and Printing Nikkors (made in the same place?) but I wondered if the specs beat the Nikkors? What struck me first was the NA of 0.168 at 5x wide open (NA0.171 for the "prism" version). That beats a 5x Mitty (NA 0.14) with a huge image circle of 86.4mm and a working distance of 79mm too!


Hi Beatsy,

That lens is a cool $16K according to Nathan but thats cheap. Rayfact makes a 5x for $19,250 and a 7x, the latter has an NA 0,30 that is extremely expensive, over $20K.

For 3x I have always been curious about the Linos inspec.x (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180865&sid=341b786dc833c5ca89b2632cf53594cc)



Someone needs to pick one up and try it, its going to be a challenge to mount a 105mm lens for 3.5x mag!

Recently I decided to try my Mag.x 5x 0.20 pushed down to 3x with a sigma 150 macro lens and the quality was better than anything I have ever seen and it covered APS-C no problem.

Robert
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Lou Jost



Joined: 04 Sep 2015
Posts: 2345
Location: Ecuador

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 5x Mag.x of yours is magnificent. I wish it were easier to find!
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 670
Location: United States

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They also make an awesome looking Mag.x 8x 0.32 that costs the same as Nathan's 1-5x Rayfact @ $16K for each, take your choice.

That seems to be the price range for hand-built and tested high-end optics I guess.

Wonder how long the 8x would last on Ebay if one popped up? Shocked


Robert
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Lou Jost



Joined: 04 Sep 2015
Posts: 2345
Location: Ecuador

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking every day since you posted your results with the 5x mag.x
None have appeared yet, neither the 5x nor 8x.
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Macro_Cosmos



Joined: 15 Jan 2018
Posts: 78
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

RobertOToole wrote:


For 3x I have always been curious about the Linos inspec.x (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180865&sid=341b786dc833c5ca89b2632cf53594cc)



Someone needs to pick one up and try it, its going to be a challenge to mount a 105mm lens for 3.5x mag!

Recently I decided to try my Mag.x 5x 0.20 pushed down to 3x with a sigma 150 macro lens and the quality was better than anything I have ever seen and it covered APS-C no problem.

Robert


Ah, the Linos Inspec.x lenses, with a catchy blue finish. I've been lusting over the .33-3x floating element version ever since I saw it.

As for this one, I know a Chinese seller with an as new surplus copy, he's asking $1000 for it though, imo not worth it.

The f/5.6 versions can be had for $300. According to the MTF charts, it's better. (ehhh edit, rechecked, the MTF published was for .33x configuration, can't find a 3x one)

Here's the 5.6 float version. At .33x the MTF looks similar, so I assume the 5.6 non-float would have a similar (if not, better) MTF at 3x configuration.

(Note to self and others: always be careful with these official MTF charts. These curves look too good to be true, and it probably is)

Image circle claimed to be 82mm. I doubt it's true for both configurations. Since Rayfact's 95mm only has an image circle of 30mm at .5x configuration, I'm guessing the .33x would be a lot smaller than 82mm? If so, no big deal.

I could be totally wrong as the above statement is essentially a false equivalence fallacy. Anyone more experienced could shed light on this issue.
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Boring to the eye? Could be amazing when magnified by 10 times!
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1282
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

RobertOToole wrote:
snip

For 3x I have always been curious about the Linos inspec.x (http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=180865&sid=341b786dc833c5ca89b2632cf53594cc)

Someone needs to pick one up and try it, its going to be a challenge to mount a 105mm lens for 3.5x mag!

Robert


I have one of those, but need to find some time to test it. I actually built the stabilized/extended modification of the WeMacro stand in order to test it. We'll see what it does on APS-C.
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Macro_Cosmos



Joined: 15 Jan 2018
Posts: 78
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:33 am    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

ray_parkhurst wrote:

I have one of those, but need to find some time to test it. I actually built the stabilized/extended modification of the WeMacro stand in order to test it. We'll see what it does on APS-C.


Which version? 5.6 or 4?
Also if you get around to testing it, please test in both configurations Very Happy (reversed and opposite, whatever reference point it may be!).
.33x could be really useful for my larger sized minerals.

Thanks,
MC
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1282
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Macro_Cosmos wrote:
ray_parkhurst wrote:

I have one of those, but need to find some time to test it. I actually built the stabilized/extended modification of the WeMacro stand in order to test it. We'll see what it does on APS-C.


Which version? 5.6 or 4?
Also if you get around to testing it, please test in both configurations Very Happy (reversed and opposite, whatever reference point it may be!).
.33x could be really useful for my larger sized minerals.

Thanks,
MC


It's the f/4 version.

I succeeded last night in creating a way to mount it, maybe will get some results this week.

edited to add:

I was able to get something almost useful out of the 105 lens at around 3.5x mag. On Canon camera it took 12.5" of extensions. Ended up using M42, which created a little hotspotting I need to address, but the image is still useful for first impressions. As expected it's very sharp and shows excellent detail with low CA!

Here's the overall shot:



And here is a 100% crop of the lower left corner:



This was a stack of 10 shots at 50um steps.

I'm impressed with the lack of any smearing of highlights, which is exceptionally rare to see, especially in the corners. It's clear that the APS-C sensor is no challenge for this lens. I'm also impressed by the very natural quality of the small piece of white detritus in lower left corner. That piece is showing a sharp edge and natural looking, distinct highlights. I don't think I've used a lens before that would show details in this way at this magnification.

Working distance is 82mm from the front of the lens case. The front face flares out a bit to 52mm. This allows good lighting flexibility.

So the challenge of this lens is figuring out a way to extend it to get 3.5x mag without hotspots. I am pretty sure this lens won't get much use other than testing for wow factor because of this problem, but we'll see. I do like the natural-looking images it produces.
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 670
Location: United States

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the information Ray.

Looks great so far.

The long focal length and the resulting long extension of those lenses has always been a reason I have never picked one up.

I am now an expert after all the dozens and dozens of hot spotting set-ups I have had to tame.

The best and simplest solution I use almost every time I shoot?

Amazon sells packs of black suede paper, its soft and thick (with prime shipping).

1. Grab a sheet
2. Roll it into a tube
3. Remove the body and insert into the tube
4. Trim if needed or add additional sheets for more coverage
5. Replace body

Flare is gone!

Works 100% of the time.

Robert
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RobertOToole



Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 670
Location: United States

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Beyond scanner/copier lenses... Reply with quote

Macro_Cosmos wrote:


Here's the 5.6 float version. At .33x the MTF looks similar, so I assume the 5.6 non-float would have a similar (if not, better) MTF at 3x configuration.


I am sure the float version is a great lens, personally I would go for the Alpa branded version: https://www.alpa.ch/_files/HR-Dig_Macro-105mm_Data-Sheet_E_2017-11.pdf

If you look at the MTFs of the float vs non-float the faster non-float lens is diffraction limited (the orange dots) the float lens will show some kind of drop-off compared I am sure but I don't think you wont see much of a difference is the real world.

Macro_Cosmos wrote:

(Note to self and others: always be careful with these official MTF charts. These curves look too good to be true, and it probably is)


True. Rodenstock MTFs are simulations not measured.
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