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80mm lens shootout - for coin photography
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1712
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: 80mm lens shootout - for coin photography Reply with quote

As I've stated previously, my preferred focal length for coin photography is 75mm. This focal length is reasonable for working distance on smaller coins and yet keeps the setups compact for larger coins. The primary limitation is the minimum length of many bellows, which along with the required adapters plus the camera register distance, can be too long to achieve a low enough magnification for larger coins. For many bellows, such as the Nikon PB4/5/6, Canon Auto Bellows, etc 75mm is impractical and a slightly longer minimum is required. I usually recommend 80mm if 75mm isn't suitable, so I think it appropriate to do a shootout of various 80mm lenses to identify which ones are best for application on these bellows or on shorter bellows with extra extension.

I have the following 80mm lenses on-hand (in no particular order):

Meopta Anaret 80/4.5
Schneider Componon-S 80/5.6
Nikon EL-Nikkor 80/5.6 (old style)
Nikon EL-Nikkor 80/5.6 (new style)
Rodenstock Rodagon 80/5.6 (old style)
Rodenstock Rodagon 80/4.0 (old style)
Rodenstock Rodagon 80/4.0 (new style)
Schneider Apo-Digitar 80/6.7 (fixed aperture)
Tomioka E36C 80/4.0 (fixed aperture)

I'd really like to have a bigger group to test before I start, but will do the shootout with these 9 lenses if no others are available. The ones I would be interested in comparing are:

Schneider Componon-S 80/4.0
Rodenstock Apo-Rodagon 80/4.0
PZO Emitar 80/4.5
Olympus OM-Zuiko 80/4.0
Minolta CE Rokkor X 80/5.6
PZO Janpol 80/5.6
Vega 30U 80/4
Meopta Meogon 80/2.8 (after doing some searching, perhaps 80/4.0 as well)
Leitz Summar 80/4.5

If you have any of the above and are willing to contribute to this shootout, PM me and we can arrange shipment. I may try to purchase some of these over the next week and will see how I do on ebay and other online sources.

If you know of other suitable 80mm lenses, please let me know and I will search for them.

I plan to do the next shootout a little differently from previous. I will probably shoot at multiple apertures (4.0/5.6/8 or whatever is available) and will shoot two images of the same feature (likely a mintmark on a US Cent) with the feature at center and corner. I like to see the comparison of same feature across all shots as it's easier to judge center vs corner degradation. This procedure is much more labor intensive (typical 6 shots per lens) but should result in a better comparison.
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Pau
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Location: Valencia, Spain

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some well regarded macro lenses:
Olympus OM Zuiko MC80 f4macro bellows lens
Apo Rodagon D 75mm 1:1 f4
Apo Rodagon D 75mm 2X f4.5

Member Javier seta666 has tested them: http://macrosmuymacros.com/index.php/es/contenidos/comparativas/test-baja-ampliacion-formato-completo
I have the two Apo RodagonD and, without having performed true tests, love them (but I live at the other side of the pond)
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1712
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pau,

Thanks for the input. I too have both the Apo Rodagon D lenses and love them. The M1:1 is the lens I recommend, when folks want better than the El-Cheapos, for bellows that are short enough to achieve the minimum magnification for US Dollars with 75mm FL. I keep a M1:2 around since although it is not as sharp in the center as the M1:1 it is a bit overall sharper and slightly better color-corrected at lower magnifications. It is thus a better lens for shooting Dollars if the shooter is looking for max pixel-level quality. If they are OK with stopping-down to f8 then the M1:1 is just as good even though it's outside its design window at the lower magnifications. My personal specialty is Cents, so I rarely shoot Dollars. If I was a Dollar specialist, I'd probably use the M1:2 instead of the M1:1.

I will continue to look for the 80/4 Oly bellows lens. I see some available and given the good reviews may go forward with a purchase if no one is able to ship one to me for the tests.

Ray
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jjphoto



Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 69
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ray

Too bad you're not in Oz as I have 5 of the lenses in your 'want list', but shipping to US is not an option.

There is also a Durst Neonon 5.6/80 (6E-4G, possibly made by Pentax but unconfirmed) and a Computar dL 4.5/80, both of which are on Evilbay at present.

Computars are notorious for separation in the rear elements so unless you can see images of the rear of the lens, and it is clear of any signs, then I would steer clear of them. Sellers descriptions are generally useless.

Do you actually want a Rodenstock APO-Rodagon or the later APO-Rodagon-N? The later lens is 7E-5G whilst the former is 6 element. The 90mm Apo-Rodagon-N is said to be the pick of the APO-Rodagon-N bunch and is on my own want list.

There are several 'wide angle' lenses in the 80mm focal length that might be worth considering, although I have no idea how they perform at your intended magnification. There is the Rodenstock Eurygon 4/80 and Schneider WA Componon 5.6/80 (both old and new version). They are very nice lenses too, especially the WA Componons.

Your magnification will probably suit specialist lenses such as scanner lenses or similar. I suspect many enlarging lenses will struggle as most lenses of this FL are designed for the 1:2-15and optimized for somewhere in the middle. Look forward to seeing the results.

Some enlarging lens specs here in case it's of use to you:

http://www.photocornucopia.com/1061.html

John
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1712
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjphoto wrote:
Hi Ray

Too bad you're not in Oz as I have 5 of the lenses in your 'want list', but shipping to US is not an option.

There is also a Durst Neonon 5.6/80 (6E-4G, possibly made by Pentax but unconfirmed) and a Computar dL 4.5/80, both of which are on Evilbay at present.

Computars are notorious for separation in the rear elements so unless you can see images of the rear of the lens, and it is clear of any signs, then I would steer clear of them. Sellers descriptions are generally useless.

Do you actually want a Rodenstock APO-Rodagon or the later APO-Rodagon-N? The later lens is 7E-5G whilst the former is 6 element. The 90mm Apo-Rodagon-N is said to be the pick of the APO-Rodagon-N bunch and is on my own want list.

There are several 'wide angle' lenses in the 80mm focal length that might be worth considering, although I have no idea how they perform at your intended magnification. There is the Rodenstock Eurygon 4/80 and Schneider WA Componon 5.6/80 (both old and new version). They are very nice lenses too, especially the WA Componons.

Your magnification will probably suit specialist lenses such as scanner lenses or similar. I suspect many enlarging lenses will struggle as most lenses of this FL are designed for the 1:2-15and optimized for somewhere in the middle. Look forward to seeing the results.

Some enlarging lens specs here in case it's of use to you:

http://www.photocornucopia.com/1061.html

John


Thanks for the good input John. I have been lucky last couple days in sourcing a few lenses from the list. One is the Olympus 80mm, but I am troubled by the adapter situation. I need to search for an adapter to go from OM lens to M42 or similar. Also picked up a Componon-S 80/4, and a PZO Emitar 80/4.5. Prices seemed decent so I went for them.

A couple years ago I bought a 90mm Apo-Rodagon, but was not too happy with the performance. I ended up selling it since its value seemed far out of line with its quality. From all the hype I expected it to be superior to the 75ARD1, but it was not. I still expect the 80mm Apo-Rodagon N to be good, as the 80/4 Rodagon is a stellar performer.

I only have one 80mm scanner lens to test (the Tomioka E36C) so this area will be less represented than in my ~100mm shootout. Will be interesting to see how it performs against the 80/4 Rodagon and 80/4 Componon-S.

I put the Durst and Computar lenses on my want list, with the appropriate caveats.

Thanks for the Photocornucopia link. Great info! I'm surprised I was not aware of it already.
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1712
Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have acquired a few of the lenses on my want list:

Meopta Anaret 80mm f4.5
Schneider Componon-S 80mm f4
Olympus Zuiko 80mm f4

As I stated earlier, I plan to do aperture sweeps, and center vs corner comparisons, plus I will add focus high/low comparisons to show any color shifts due to longCA. In the past I've shown the pics individually, allowing folks to pick what they want to compare and then pixel peep as needed. I've had good results in other comparisons using animation, so I'm thinking of doing the pixel peeping using the following 4 animations for each lens:

Aperture Sweep at Center (max to f/8)
High-Low Focus Sweep (at max aperture)
Aperture Sweep at Corner (max to f/8)
Center-Corner comparison (at best aperture)

Here are the 4 animations done on the Meopta Anaret:

Aperture Sweep at Center:


High-Low Focus Sweep:


Aperture Sweep at Corner:


Center-Corner comparison at Optimum Aperture


Magnification is fixed at 0.75:1.

This example shows the Anaret improves Center sharpness and contrast significantly from f4.5 to f5.6, then only slightly or not at all from f5.6 to f8.0. In fact f8.0 seems to have lower overall contrast than f5.6 (reflection off the aperture iris?). The Corner sharpness and contrast improve from f4.5 to f5.6, then more from f5.6 to f8. I did the Center-Corner comparison at f8, which I deemed optimum aperture for this lens due to the improved corner sharpness even with the slight degradation at the center.

I see only a small change in color in the Focus animation. Focused low shows a bit of a red shift, while focused high shows a bit of green, but the effect is more subtle than I've seen on many lenses. This lens seems to fairly well color-corrected.

I will do the remaining lenses as I have time, but wanted to put the method out there so folks could comment before I go through the rest of the lenses.

It looks like the focal length is slightly longer at f8.0 vs f5.6 or f4.5. All the images are aligned within a pixel or two, but the f8.0 are at a slightly lower magnification.
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mjm6



Joined: 28 Jan 2016
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like some good work there, and it sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you on this!

Any way you can do this and not move the coin relative to the lights when you do the center-corner comparison?

The changing lighting makes it difficult to suss out the real performance in the animation comparison.

Lastly, I might think about adding in a focus target after shooting the coin. That may bring out differences that the coin does not make apparent because of the nature of the the coins (no strong delineations to check for contrast, CA, and coma, etc.). Not sure what an appropriate target might be, but the USAF 1950 target comes to mind. The are available in reflected targets I believe. There is probably something more appropriate than that available, but I'm not familiar with anything that might work.


---Michael
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael...thanks, good feedback. My lights are fixed vs the camera, not the coin, so as I move the coin I get changes in light. Can't be helped without completely reconfiguring my setup. Perhaps I can change lighting, adding diffusion, etc that the change will be minimized. I will look into that.

I've hesitated getting a resolution test target as I've never seen a good interpretation of them vs coin photography. Mostly folks use them for checking ultimate resolution, which is not so useful for coin photography.

I must say that coins do indeed have fine structures that are useful for checking contrast, CA, coma, and other aberrations. They also have specular reflectivity that adds another dimension to the testing. There are of course few straight lines to work with! But keep zooming-in and you will keep seeing more and more detail, so these details are useful in checking lens quality...Ray
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austrokiwi1



Joined: 14 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

may be a little late.... Have you looked at the Agfa 80/4 repromaster?
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Cameras' Sony A7rII, OLympus OMD-EM10II
Macro lenses: Printing nikkor 105mm, Sony FE 90mm F2.8 Macro G, Schneider Kreuznach Makro Iris 50mm , 2.8, Schnieder Kreuznach APO Componon HM 40mm F2.8 , Mamiya 645 120mm F4 Macro ( used with mirex tilt shift adapter), Olympus 135mm 4.5 bellows lens, Oly 80mm bellows lens, Olympus 60mm F2.8
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ray_parkhurst



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

austrokiwi1 wrote:
may be a little late.... Have you looked at the Agfa 80/4 repromaster?


No, I've never owned an Agfa lens. Checking eBay I see a 80/4.5 Repromaster:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agfa-80mm-1-4-5-repromaster-/351678686256?hash=item51e1aee430:g:cMwAAOSwu1VW6DbF

The mount on this one seems quite roughly-done. What is the normal mounting of this lens? And is there a f/4 version of it? With the name "Repromaster" I assume it would be optimized around 1:1 or may 1:2?
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ChrisR
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like an enlarger mount? From 120 film, it would typically be more than 1:1 or 2, probably?
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austrokiwi1



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know much about it. I have been told it is a repro lens and has a flat field and may possibly be APO{I expect it is APO like some enlarger lenses are "APO"). It is supposed to be good for 1-1 to 2-1 but I have no idea how accurate that claim is.
I have seen a couple of examples on View Camera boards, and have been told the mount is 32.5mm. I raised it as an option as it might be an unknown gem( or a complete waste of time).

Edit: Since first posting I have purchased an F4 version to try out as it was cheap. Will tell you more in a week or so( depending on when I get the adapter)

2nd edit: Did some digging the repro-master lenses were process lenses and were designed for flat field work..... that suggests to me that the 80mm may be , with stacking, a good coin lens. It should be optimized for 1-1. It was made by Staeble and may have the potential to be an alternative to the ARD 75mm
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Cameras' Sony A7rII, OLympus OMD-EM10II
Macro lenses: Printing nikkor 105mm, Sony FE 90mm F2.8 Macro G, Schneider Kreuznach Makro Iris 50mm , 2.8, Schnieder Kreuznach APO Componon HM 40mm F2.8 , Mamiya 645 120mm F4 Macro ( used with mirex tilt shift adapter), Olympus 135mm 4.5 bellows lens, Oly 80mm bellows lens, Olympus 60mm F2.8
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austrokiwi1



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided I wouldn't wait for the adapter. I wrapped some insulation tape around the lens mount until I could fit a M39 adapter onto it tightly. I haven't done any testing, but For the price(€70.00) it strikes me as being a much better lens than some others in the same price range. It does seem to have a flat field. However as it is designed for large format and I was using a FF camera, it may well be any field curvature might have been avoided due to the cropping. It does seem to have a very shallow depth of field. Color rendition seems to be good. It also appears to have good resolution at 1-1. This crop was at F5.6(micro printing on a 10 Euro note):



The lens its self is quite flat in profile:



If you can get one to use in your shoot out it would be very interesting to see how it compares. From memory I think it is resolving much better than the APO 90mm rodagon , but memory shouldn't be relied upon

Edit:

I did a little informal testing:

100% crop at 1-1:



100% crop at 2-1:



I also projected an image of a 1951 USAF resolution target ( from the lens through a 10X objective. It seemed to be resolving (just) at group 6 element 6
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Cameras' Sony A7rII, OLympus OMD-EM10II
Macro lenses: Printing nikkor 105mm, Sony FE 90mm F2.8 Macro G, Schneider Kreuznach Makro Iris 50mm , 2.8, Schnieder Kreuznach APO Componon HM 40mm F2.8 , Mamiya 645 120mm F4 Macro ( used with mirex tilt shift adapter), Olympus 135mm 4.5 bellows lens, Oly 80mm bellows lens, Olympus 60mm F2.8
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ray_parkhurst



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ended up picking up a copy of this lens from eBay UK. Thanks for the link AK. I'll add it to my test group. My shootout is moving along very slowly so there is time to add it.
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austrokiwi1



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, for one will look forward to the comparison.

BTW I conducted a more robust assessment of the resolution of the AGFA. Its resolution limit is Group 6 element five ( not element 6 as I stated earlier). It compares well, and particularly well in price terms, to the limited number of Enlarger lenses I have had experience with.
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Cameras' Sony A7rII, OLympus OMD-EM10II
Macro lenses: Printing nikkor 105mm, Sony FE 90mm F2.8 Macro G, Schneider Kreuznach Makro Iris 50mm , 2.8, Schnieder Kreuznach APO Componon HM 40mm F2.8 , Mamiya 645 120mm F4 Macro ( used with mirex tilt shift adapter), Olympus 135mm 4.5 bellows lens, Oly 80mm bellows lens, Olympus 60mm F2.8
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