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Extreme Macro Help
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Extreme Macro Help Reply with quote

Hi guys.,

I have read almost every page of the forum but I still have some doubts, especially referred how to arm the system for extreme macros, for full frame and APS-C cameras.

I have the following equipment:

Canon 5D mark II (full Frame)
Canon 60D (APS-C)
Kenko Etension Tubes DG of 20 mm, 12 mm and 36 mm = 68 mm in total
2 flashes And difusor
Remote shutter
Focus stacking program


There are many models for microscope objectives and many symbologies, and they are not cheap to buy the wrong objetive Sad , so, I´ll appreciate if you can suggest to me, with objective I need for the two cameras (canon 5d mark II and canon 60D), with their symbols and numbers and having the thread RSM for the cone or flat RSM adapter.


The magnification that would like to get, I´ll show you in these photographs:


http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5226/5658394388_c231dd4371_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4935638560_d56b0937ab_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6079/6152790972_facae207c0_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4089/5031076906_1a0ffafb97_b.jpg


Finally, taking the recommended objetive from you and the equipament that I presented above, that's all than I need to start with macro extreme?


Best Regard and thanks for you support.

Chris


Last edited by crayfish74 on Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:09 am; edited 4 times in total
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Harold Gough



Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 5787
Location: Reading, Berkshire, England

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will let the specialists at those magnifications answer. (They may well challenge "extreme macro" for those examples) . In the meantime, what are you going to use for illumination?

Harold
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My images are a medium for sharing some of my experiences: they are not me.
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a pair of flash And difusor, cheers
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 18088
Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris, welcome aboard!

Those images look typical of a 4X objective, maybe 10X on full frame (so 3.6 mm field width on the subject).

For use with an APS-sized sensor such as your 60D, see the recent discussion HERE. Several options are recommended there. Note that one of the options is to use newer design "infinite" objectives, some of which offer high quality over a larger field than the older "finite" design that you're proposing to use.

Working with a full-frame such as the 5D Mark II is more challenging. Most microscope objectives will not give high quality over such a large sensor at rated magnification. Your options boil down to 1) increase the magnification to get the required coverage, or 2) use one of the select few objectives that actually will cover full frame at rated magnification. Given the small difference in pixel counts between the 60D and 5D Mark II, you won't see much more detail with the larger sensor. The larger sensor can be less noisy, however, so if you're driven by smooth gradation you may prefer that. If that's the case, ask again and we'll talk more about those options and the optics to go with them.

There are two things that I don't see mentioned in your list:

1. Focus stacking hardware. You'll need some sort of precision mechanics for making the small steps needed to work with microscope objectives. At 4X, a typical step size is 0.05 mm or less; at 10X, it's 0.01 mm or less. To do this reliably requires either a screw-driven rail or a microscope focus block.

2. Anything that might serve as a "tube lens" for use with an infinite objective. These are typically telephotos or other long lenses in the range of 100-200 mm focal length. While I've stated a range, it's better if the lens is fixed focal length. Zooms will work too, but in most cases only at the long end. When zoomed short, they usually vignette too badly.

Just making sure the bases are covered... Two threads that should definitely be on your reading list are FAQ: How can I hook a microscope objective to my camera? and FAQ: What's the best way to focus when stacking?. The latter thread starts with a discussion of theoretical issues, but rapidly switches to talking about hardware. See the post HERE for links to many good setups.

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much RIK....


I don´t know if I understood correctly what you mean


I actually have 3 prime lenses:

1.- Canon 135 mm USM L prime lens + 1.4 X TC

2.- Tamron 180 mm macro 1:1

3.- Canon 300 mm USM L Prime Lens


Can I use one of these lens and insert on the front cover, the infinite microscope objective? such, Nikon CFI BE 4x infinite ?


If that's possible, what adapter I need between the microscope objective and one of my 3 lenses than I mentioned above?

is this correct?

RMS-to-52mm and 52 - 77 for Tamron macro 1:1
RMS-to-52mm and 52 - 72 for Canon lens


Best regard,

Chris
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayfish74 wrote:
I actually have 3 prime lenses:
1.- Canon 135 mm USM L prime lens + 1.4 X TC
2.- Tamron 180 mm macro 1:1
3.- Canon 300 mm USM L Prime Lens

Can I use one of these lens and insert on the front cover, the infinite microscope objective?

Yes, every one of these lenses can be used this way.

Quote:
if that's possible, what adapter I need between the microscope objective and one of my 3 lenses than I mentioned above?

See discussion and links at http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=114396#114396. (That's in the same thread I linked earlier.)

Given the high quality lenses you list, I would probably go with a chain of 3 adapters:
1. objective thread to M42,
2. M42 to 52mm filter thread,
3. step rings from 52mm to each of your lenses.

The advantages of this setup are that 1) it adapts easily to objectives with various mounts and 2) it allows addition of an adjustable iris if you want make the background less blurred.

Quote:
What 4x infinite microscope objetive you can recomend for that porpuse?

Two suggestions:

1. Probably the highest quality lens in this category is the Mitutoyo Plan Apo Infinity-Corrected Long WD Objective, 5X NA 0.14, as sold by Edmund Optics HERE. Objectives from this line turn up occasionally on eBay and typically sell for half list price or more. Edmund lists the 5X at $650. The last one I saw on eBay was a Buy-It-Now at $349 that closed for an unspecified reason; the one before sold at $550 on Buy-It-Now. This objective has a 26 mm x 36 tpi thread.

2. A much less imposing objective (cheaper, shorter working distance, physically smaller, not quite so much resolution) is the Nikon CFI BE 4X NA 0.10 objective discussed HERE and currently selling at OpticsPlanet.com for $67. Despite the low price, this lens is no toy. This 4X NA 0.10 and the corresponding CFI BE 10X NA 0.25 objective are quickly becoming two of my favorite lenses. The Nikon CFI BE objectives have an RMS thread.

Note that these objectives give rated magnification when used with a 200 mm tube lens. With any other tube lens, the magnification and coverage scale in proportion to the focal length.

All the objectives listed here should cover a full frame sensor at rated magnification, with perhaps a little degradation in the extreme corners. Of course they can also be used at rated magnification on an APS sensor, or they can be pushed to lower magnification by using a shorter tube lens. On an APS sensor, my Nikon CFI BE 4X is clean down to 2.7X on a 135 mm tube lens, and my Nikon CFI BE 10X is clean (and extremely sharp) at 5X on a 100 mm tube lens -- see HERE as an example.

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much Rik.


those objetives are the same of:

CFI 45 plan acromathic for microscope Nikon model E100 ?


http://images1.opticsplanet.com/pdf/opplanet-nikon-eclipse-e100-microscope-01-manual.pdf


Best,
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's correct.

Most advertisements for these objectives have the wrong picture. They show the CFI60 series objectives that have different appearance (gold colored barrels), different threads, different parfocal distance, and different working distances.

The page you link shows the correct appearance, with black barrels.

The correct objectives can be identified by Nikon part number. The two objectives in front of me right now say MRN70100 (the 10X) and MRN70040 (the 4X).

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks RIK Very Happy

This microscope, Nikon E100 works, with this objetives:

Distance parfocal 45mm (CFI 45)


The Others microscopes models works with:

Distance parfocal 60mm (CFI 60)


But what is the big diference between 45 mm and 60 mm? what does that 45 mm, will be the microscope objetive than I need?


Best regard and many thanks for all sopport...........
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CFI BE objectives have an RMS thread and focus at 45 mm from the shoulder of the thread. These are the same dimensions as DIN objectives.

CFI60 objectives have a 25 mm thread and focus at 60 mm from the shoulder. But the objectives are longer too, so the working distance is not so much different from CFI BE.

The CFI BE 4X has nominal 25 mm working distance. If you remove the barrel that increases to 32 mm.

The CFI BE 10X has 6.7 mm working distance and you can't do anything to make that bigger. But the end of the objective is only about 12 mm diameter so you have about 45 degrees for light to get in. I find it pretty easy to work with.

The CFI BE 10X is not nearly as good that way as the Mitutoyo 10X NA 0.28, which is 33.5 mm working distance with only 32.2 mm diameter. On the other hand the last Mitutoyo 10X auctioned for $294, and the one before that went for $389, where the CFI BE 10X sells new for $85.

You can mix and match by just getting a couple of different objective-to-M42 adapters. For example you might start with a CFI BE 4X to see if you like to work at high mag, then go to Mitutoyo 10X to get high quality and long working distance at higher magnification, then backfill with a Mitutoyo 5X if you eventually decide the extra resolution is worth it. Again, bear in mind that you can push either 10X down to lower magnification by using a shorter tube lens such as your 135 mm, and get far more resolution than either the 4X or 5X will give you at same magnification.

I have the CFI BE 4X and 10X, the CFI60 10X Plan Achromat, and the Mitutoyo 10X, with tube lenses at 100, 135, and 200 mm. Given that kit, I haven't felt compelled to go for a Mitutoyo 5X yet.

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally, I don´t want to make a mistake in buying the adapters since they come from China and take time to get here Confused

RIK, I will apreciate, if you can place here the direct EBAY LINKS, to buy now all the adapters than I will need to connect the CFI 45 plan acromathic and with my 3 lenses with filters 77 mm, 72 mm and Kenko DG extension tubes ( i don´t know the mm filter of the Kenko DG tubes extension)


Best Regar and thanks for all soport this week RIK !!
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rjlittlefield
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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Location: Richland, Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The simplest setup is an RMS-to-52mm plus a step ring for each of your lenses. That would be:
RMS-to-52mm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RMS-8-microscope-objective-female-to-male-M52-52mm-adapter-/200750438193
72 to 52 mm step-down ring: http://www.ebay.com/itm/72-52mm-72mm-to-52mm-Step-Down-Ring-Filter-Adapter-Ring-/280574046510
77 to 52 mm step-down ring: http://www.ebay.com/itm/77mm-52mm-77-to-52-Step-Down-Ring-Filter-Adapter-/250709774249

If you want to add an iris to allow stopping down for sharper background, then it's like this:
RMS-to-M42 flat plate adapter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/thin-M42-to-RMS-Adapter-for-microscope-objective-flat-/200619040676
M42 iris: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IRIS-DIAPHRAGM-Aperture-blade-with-M42-thread-casing-/140547138653
M42-to-M52 adapter ring: http://www.ebay.com/itm/52mm-to-42mm-52-42-M42-Filter-Adapter-Ring-/360331162636
72 to 52 mm step-down ring: http://www.ebay.com/itm/72-52mm-72mm-to-52mm-Step-Down-Ring-Filter-Adapter-Ring-/280574046510
77 to 52 mm step-down ring: http://www.ebay.com/itm/77mm-52mm-77-to-52-Step-Down-Ring-Filter-Adapter-/250709774249

The Kenko tubes are Canon bayonet at both ends. You won't be using them with the CFI 45 objectives.

I hope this helps. I will be away from the forum for a few days.

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rik,

I have a very good quality image with the The CFI BE 4X but not the same with the The CFI BE 10X

Do you have the same feeling? what 10x with be better IQ as 4x CFI BE?

This is the better lens?


http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/imaging-lenses/fixed-magnification-lenses/mitutoyo-infinity-corrected-long-working-distance-objectives/46144


I´m using both lens in a 5D mark II + 200 mm tube lens

Best,

Chris.


Last edited by crayfish74 on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rjlittlefield
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The next step up from the CFI BE 10X is to the CFI Plan Achromat 10x NA 0.25 WD 10.5mm (part number MRL00102). See report HERE.

However, my experience is that the CFI BE 10X and the MRL00102 have almost the same image quality at image center. The difference is that the MRL00102 holds up over a wider field and has more working distance.

What sort of image quality problems are you having with the CFI BE 10X?

--Rik
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crayfish74



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 4x seems to be sharper than the CFI BE 10X is also sharper and clearer image, also The 10 x has a softer focus in my opinion and more blurred image.


the lens that you has recomend above is good but expensive... Shocked

http://www.edmundoptics.com/imaging/imaging-lenses/fixed-magnification-lenses/mitutoyo-infinity-corrected-long-working-distance-objectives/46144
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