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Rare Nikon Bellows Lens
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typestar



Joined: 12 Dec 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ray_parkhurst wrote:
...I started a thread a while back asking that question. But so far I've seen no responses with anything that is better, or even as good, as the PN's.


Ray, could you show a comparison of Printing Nikkor 2,8/105 mm vs. APO-EL-Nikkor 5,6/105 mm and the Rodenstock/Scitex 110 mm/ 5.0 This EL-Apo-Nikkor has been sold for really astronomical prices, also,
and as far as I remember, you wrote in your thread, that you have tried this and also the Rodenstocks. This would be nice to be seen,
if you find you precious time...

About the new Schneider 80 mm -- I called the R&D office in Germany lin august 2011 and could speak with the "father" of this optical design, per coincidence. He told me, that the still available Schneider 60x APO-Macro-Componon 60mm /f4 - for a "general macro-use" plays in a comparable resolution league, shows on the other hand a wider enlargement range as the new Varon. The new high-prized Varon is constructed for a special range of sensor sizes in industry and therefore limited and specialized (like the printing-nikkor...).
This I think, is nice to hear for our "playing around" in macrophotography. He did not try to "convince" me, that the new lens would show significately enhancements for our concerns. The new varon is over 4 times the price of the apo-macro-componon ...

Regards,
christian


Last edited by typestar on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:12 am; edited 5 times in total
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Babylonia



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found a test of the APO-Macro-Componon 60mm /f4
If it is the ultimate solution for a range of enlargement factors is another issue.
http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/apo_componon_60.htm
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

typestar wrote:
Ray, could you show a comparison of Printing Nikkor 2,8/105 mm vs. APO-EL-Nikkor 5,6/105 mm and the Rodenstock/Scitex 110 mm/ 5.0 This EL-Apo-Nikkor has been sold for really astronomical prices, also,
and as far as I remember, you wrote in your thread, that you have tried this and also the Rodenstocks. This would be nice to be seen,
if you find you precious time...


Christian...yes, I can do the comparison. I need to unpack the 105AEN so it will take a day or two to get the lenses together for the test. I've actually been wanting to do a test like this using my new T2i. Love the EFSC, makes life much easier. I plan to do the test with a Lincoln Cent if that's OK...Ray
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Oskar O



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 243
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it needs to be kept in mind that the Printing Nikkors are designed for magnifications strictly around 1:1 and are not likely to be anything special outside that magnification (the review at coinimaging hints at that too). Thus comparing with lenses that are not optimized for 1:1 is a bit tricky -- what is the intended usage of the lens and does the comparison make sense if the lenses are very different?
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oskar O wrote:
I think it needs to be kept in mind that the Printing Nikkors are designed for magnifications strictly around 1:1 and are not likely to be anything special outside that magnification (the review at coinimaging hints at that too). Thus comparing with lenses that are not optimized for 1:1 is a bit tricky -- what is the intended usage of the lens and does the comparison make sense if the lenses are very different?


This is what I was implying with my comment of using a coin to make the comparison. I'd probably use a US Cent, at 0.8:1. Will that be useful to the group? I'd throw in the 90mm Apo Componon HM and the two 75mm Apo Rodagon D's (1x and 2x) as well. But my test subject is a 19mm circle, so my result will favor central sharpness and ignore corner sharpness. That's the reality of my application.

Ray
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got my 105AEL out of storage and snapped some pics comparing the 105AEL vs 105PN vs 110RS3. Sorry for a less-exhaustive presentation versus some of the excellent ones done on this forum. Camera is a T2i, so is not pushing the lenses to their limits. Magnification is around 0.75:1.

Here are the overall shots:

Nikon 105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor at f5.6


Nikon 105mm Printing-Nikkor at f5.6


Rodenstock 110mm Scitex S-3 at f5.0 (fixed aperture)


Here are center comparisons

Nikon 105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor at f5.6


Nikon 105mm Printing-Nikkor at f5.6


Rodenstock 110mm Scitex S-3 at f5.0 (fixed aperture)


And here is the top comparison.

Nikon 105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor at f5.6


Nikon 105mm Printing-Nikkor at f5.6


Rodenstock 110mm Scitex S-3 at f5.0 (fixed aperture)


Even with the crop sensor and not looking at corners, the superiority of the 105PN for 1:1 is apparent, though this should not be unexpected. The 110RS3 has a very slight edge to the 105AEL but both are similar.

I'll push these all to 2x and see how they perform. I'll reverse the 105AEL for 2x but keep the others in normal orientation.
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Peter De Smidt



Joined: 05 Jan 2012
Posts: 207

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work, Ray!
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typestar



Joined: 12 Dec 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ray, thankyou for the first part -- I am suprised and pleased with the result of the Rodenstock S-3 5/100 mm in this range, I never would have believed, that it outperforms the famous APO-EL-Nikkor...!
thankyou for further parts...!
regards,
christian
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall shots at 2x. Single images, critical focus on the shiny dot on Lincoln's throat at center of image:

105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor (reversed)


105mm Printing-Nikkor


110mm Scitex S-3


Center Crops:

105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor (reversed)


105mm Printing-Nikkor


110mm Scitex S-3


Corner Crops:

105mm Apo-EL-Nikkor (reversed)


105mm Printing-Nikkor


110mm Scitex S-3


The order is still the same, 105PN then 110RS3 then 105AEL.

I'm thinking this 105AEL must be defective. I have a second one (older style) that has always been a top performer and will dig it out and compare it with this one.
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it appears the older 105AEL is slightly better than the newer one but still not as sharp as the 105PN, even at 2:1. Here is a corner crop of the 2nd 105AEL:



I tried stopping these down a bit to see if they would improve, but they looked about the same at f8 as f5.6. As I remember I found the optimum for the 105AEL's was f7.1, but only marginal difference.

In previous comparisons I made using Nikon camera I saw less of a difference between the lenses. With the Canon, the differences are more obvious.

One result of these tests is I'm very pleased with the performance of the 110RS3. It held its own against the 105AEL, which is saying a lot.
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typestar



Joined: 12 Dec 2009
Posts: 105
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ray,

thankyou for your work on the second test! Again, great to see the power of the Rodenstock/Scitex lens, how plays on its own. Finally, if you really can throw in the "normal" other Apo Rodenstocks, as offered, I am very curios on this expanded results...!

Best wishes,
christian
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Oskar O



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 243
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ray_parkhurst wrote:

This is what I was implying with my comment of using a coin to make the comparison. I'd probably use a US Cent, at 0.8:1. Will that be useful to the group? I'd throw in the 90mm Apo Componon HM and the two 75mm Apo Rodagon D's (1x and 2x) as well. But my test subject is a 19mm circle, so my result will favor central sharpness and ignore corner sharpness. That's the reality of my application.

Ray


I think these results are very interesting, thanks for posting!

I'd point out, however, that the AEL-Nikkor is not designed for 1:1, it's for something between 1:4 and 1:10 (don't remember right now), which might explain the results. My Apo-Rodagon 75/4 is an excellent lens, but it's poor at magnifications significantly lower than 1:1. Also, the AEL105 should cover 6x7, so the sensor is really tiny compared to the full field of the lens. This doesn't matter for the application presented here, but helps to explain why the AEL has a stellar reputation even though the Printing Nikkor was clearly better in these tests; the AEL would likely have an edge around 1:10 and it would work on a very large sensor.
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oskar O wrote:

I'd point out, however, that the AEL-Nikkor is not designed for 1:1, it's for something between 1:4 and 1:10 (don't remember right now), which might explain the results. My Apo-Rodagon 75/4 is an excellent lens, but it's poor at magnifications significantly lower than 1:1. Also, the AEL105 should cover 6x7, so the sensor is really tiny compared to the full field of the lens. This doesn't matter for the application presented here, but helps to explain why the AEL has a stellar reputation even though the Printing Nikkor was clearly better in these tests; the AEL would likely have an edge around 1:10 and it would work on a very large sensor.


The 105AEL is designed for 2x...20x enlarglements. I figured it should do very well at the 2x end especially on APS-C. I also have a 95mm Printing Nikkor that I may throw into the mix here as it's optimized for 2:1. Always nice to see what a lens can do at its optimum magnification. One other thing to note is the 105PN is well stopped-down at f5.6, beyond its optimum, so it will do even better than shown if opened-up a bit and stacked...Ray
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ray_parkhurst



Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've re-done the tests on the original 3 lenses and added 4 more. I changed the subject coin to distinguish from earlier shots. The lens list is:

Nikon 105mm Apo El-Nikkor (105AEL)
Nikon 95mm Printing-Nikkor (95PN)
Nikon 105mm Printing-Nikkor (105PN)
Rodenstock 75mm Apo Rodagon D 1:1 (75ARD1)
Rodenstock 75mm Apo Rodagon D 2x (75ARD2)
Rodenstock 110mm Scitex S-3 (110RS3)
Schneider 90mm Apo Componon HM (90ACHM)

I only did 2x so far. If I find some more time I will do 1x on this group, but most of these just start into their range or are optimized at 2x so it makes sense to start there.

I reversed the 105AEL and the 90ACHM but all others are tested forward.

Critical focus was made on a small dimple at the middle of Lincoln's throat. Look there for differences in the center image. The differences in the center images is much smaller than in the corner images.

Here are the overall shots

105AEL


95PN


105PN


75ARD1


75ARD2


110RS3


90ACHM


Here are the center crops

105AEL


95PN


105PN


75ARD1


75ARD2


110RS3


90ACHM


Here are the corner crops

105AEL


95PN


105PN


75ARD1


75ARD2


110RS3


90ACHM


Based on the center crops, I think the order, best first, is:

105PN
75ARD1
95PN
110RS3
75ARD2
105AEL
90ACHM

Based on the corner crops, I think the order, best first, is:

105PN
95PN
75ARD1
110RS3
105AEL
75ARD2
90ACHM

The 105PN seems just a touch better than the 95PN even at 2:1 where the 95PN is optimized and the 105PN is on the edge of its range. The 75ARD1 holds its own, as does the 110RS3, just behind the PNs. The 105AEL closely follows the 110RS3, while the 75ARD2 and especially 90ACHM lag behind.

Keep in mind I'm using APS-C sensor. Others have concluded the 75ARD2 is better than 75ARD1 at the edge of full frame sensors.

The difference between the two PNs is minimal, but there's a big jump to the rest of the pack at the corners.
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Harold Gough



Joined: 09 Mar 2008
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Location: Reading, Berkshire, England

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The item sold for $1,319.78, a bargain compared with previous listings.

Harold
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