Cant take photos thru the scope with new camera :(

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Cyclops
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Cant take photos thru the scope with new camera :(

Post by Cyclops »

Well, I had a go earlier and whereas the camera phone will look into the tube and focus on the image the new cam just sees the eyepiece lens with a tiny dot in the centre representing the image in the objective, and if I zoom in I just get black! And i imagine the story would be the same if I tried using my Canon film SLR.
So what kind of adaptor would I need to correct this? What are you big camera users, err, using?
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Biologyben
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Post by Biologyben »

Any time that you use a camera to take a picture through a microscope, you need to make sure that it's aligned properly (inline with the microscope's optical axis) and that it's the correct distance from the microscope objective.

Try reading this 'paper' by Charles Krebs. The introduction goes over some of the technical aspects of the hobby and follows with how to use a fixed lens camera as well as how to use a camera with no lens attached.

http://krebsmicro.com/photomic1/photomic1.html

Essentially, the camera will be taking the place of your eye, and needs to be kept at that distance while a photo is being taken.

Try again using some of the concepts gleaned from that write-up.

If ya still got problems, let us know :)

Hairyduck
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Post by Hairyduck »

you also need an eyepiece in the photo tube

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Thanks guys but I did have an eyepiece in the tube and I can get it to work fine when using my camera phone, but even tho the new camera is aligned the image is just a tiny dot in the middle.
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Cyclops
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an explanation, with pics

Post by Cyclops »

Ive read that article and I knew a lot of it already and I have to say unfortunatley my cam is unsuitable!
You see the lens retracts when switched off and when its out for use theres no filter thread and so I cant attach a protecting fillter(Skylight 1A) and without it the lens would be damaged from touching the microscope eyepiece.
The cam does have an adaptor that allows filters to be fitted, but that extends beyond the end of the lens so the camera lens is even further from the eyepiece, hence the extreme and unusable vignetting!

Image

Two images thru the scope with this camera with lens adaptor removed and carefully held over the eyepiece-subject is tissue paper.

Image

Image
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Biologyben
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Post by Biologyben »

hrm....yes...

I you've tried focus at infinity with it zoomed in (out? hrm... Telephoto - not wide angle) as much optically, then you are going to have this issue.

It's mainly due to the fact that the lens is larger than the eyepiece of the scope.

The lens should not be touching the scope tho. The lens of your eye doesn't touch it, right?

I believe it needs to be placed at (or near) the point where all the light rays converge above the eyepiece. You can find this point turning on the scope and making sure the diaphram is opened, then hold a peice of tissue paper at the point where the light is the most concentrated. this will be close to, but ot quite touching the eyepiece.


Yay! Bad ASCII Drawing Time!!


...\...../
.....\../
..... V ____where camera lens or eye would be placed
......^
..../....\
../........\
|______| ____Microscope eyepeice
|............|

Of course, I could be wrong.

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Thanks for that Bio, nice ASCII drawing
Errm, well, my scope is an all manual monocular jobbie with no electrics, just a mirror,very basic.

I have tried zooming in(putting it in Tele mode) but nothing but blackness.
What gets me is I have a sophistcated 6MP digi yet I cant get pics with it thru the scope, yet I can get good pics with my camera phone thru it!
(Oh and the camera phone does have to be touching the eyepiece, tho there is a little relief, hence the slight vignetting)


Image

Image

Imagine if I could do this with my new camera!
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Biologyben
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Post by Biologyben »

then you could use a desk lamp or some other source of light to have a nice bright light through the eyepeice.

Just don't look in!

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Biologyben wrote:then you could use a desk lamp or some other source of light to have a nice bright light through the eyepeice.

Just don't look in!

Yea i use a desk lamp to get the pics but i think i need some adaptor if i'm to use the new cam. I need to run further tests.
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

rjlittlefield
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Post by rjlittlefield »

Cyclops wrote:What gets me is I have a sophisticated 6MP digi yet I cant get pics with it thru the scope, yet I can get good pics with my camera phone thru it!

(Oh and the camera phone does have to be touching the eyepiece, tho there is a little relief, hence the slight vignetting)
Cyclops, I feel your pain, but I don't know how to make it go away.

Adapting Biologyben's great graphic, here's the problem.

This is what you need:

...\...../
.....\../
..... V ____where the "entrance pupil" needs to be placed
......^
..../....\
../........\
|______| ____Microscope eyepeice
|............|

but unfortunately, this is what you have:

-\---..---/ ----- where the "entrance pupil" of the lens really is
...\....../
.....\../
..... V ____where the "entrance pupil" needs to be placed
......^
..../....\
--------------- front element of the lens
|______| ____Microscope eyepeice
|............|

Where I write "entrance pupil", feel free to substitute "aperture". The entrance pupil is just the apparent position of the aperture, as seen through the front of the lens.

In other words, your lens has too much glass in front of its aperture. You can't get the aperture close enough to the eyepiece to see the full field. The situation is like trying to look through the microscope with your eye while wearing a swim/diving mask.

I simply do not know of any commercial optics that will make your microscope and camera play well together. :( I don't think there's any theoretical problem, it's just that no manufacturer has ever seen profit in putting one together.

The reason your camera phone works OK is that it's built a lot like a human eye -- the aperture is not very far deep inside the lens, so you can get it pretty well lined up with where the microscope needs it to be. By the way, with my camera phone the best coupling is with the camera positioned about 1/2" away from the eyepiece. At that position, it captures the full image. The image doesn't fill the camera's field, but that's because the camera is wider-angle than the eyepiece is. Like your second pic, but with black all around the bright circle.

Hope this is helpful, even though not very encouraging. :(

--Rik

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Thanks rik, that sums the problem up perfectly, and the diving mask analogy is a good one!
I wear glasses and to see a full image I have to take them off,same problem as my cam, and my eyepieces dont have the rubber shields that new ones have.
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Charles Krebs
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Post by Charles Krebs »

Larry,

Rik summed it up very nicely. There are possible solutions, but they are not cheap! There are companies that make "couplers" for digital cameras like yours... for example check out "MM99-55" on this page:
http://www.martinmicroscope.com/New%20MM%20Page.htm

Essentially these adapters can be thought of as large, custom made eyepieces that have an extremely high eyepoint.

Now, if the eyepiece you are using is not a "high eyepoint" type you might see significant improvement with a different microscope eyepiece but likely still have significant vignetting.

(some other manufacturers of such adapters are listed in this piece: http://krebsmicro.com/photomic1/photomic1.html )

When it comes to the "afocal" method on a microscope, the smaller the lens on the camera the easier it is to accomplish without vignetting. Unfortunately the 12X zoom on your camera, while an excellent lens for general photography, is one of the larger lenses used on these types of digital cameras.

Charlie

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Crikey Charlie the adaptor for mine costs more than the camera! They look meat tho,especially when you can attach an objective straight to the cam with one,i like that idea!
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

Gary W Brown
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Post by Gary W Brown »

I have made several very inexpensive couplers for cameras with retractable lenses. Before I can tell you that it will work for your camera I'll need to do some research about your camera. There is a ton of great information in the replies above and maybe, if this little coupler works you can get some great photos. Did you try the sock? GW

Cyclops
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Post by Cyclops »

Thanks Gary,I've not had chance to try the sock yet but its in the back of my mind still.
Canon 30D | Canon IXUS 265HS | Cosina 100mm f3.5 macro | EF 75-300 f4.5-5.6 USM III | EF 50 f1.8 II | Slik 88 tripod | Apex Practicioner monocular microscope

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