Path to shutterless camera? Konost/CMOSIS development

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Chris S.
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Path to shutterless camera? Konost/CMOSIS development

Post by Chris S. »

I'm probably not alone in contemplating a camera optimized for the macro/micro studio. It would be devoid of a mechanical shutter—these cause vibration and wear out, and offer us little benefit. If left up to me, such a camera would also be free of autofocus, autoexposure, and other things we don't need. But it would use the latest and greatest sensors, and be programmable so that we could tell it what we need it to do.

Shutterless cameras do exist as dedicated instruments for microscopes and telescopes. But they tend to be expensive, use older-technology Kodak sensors or too-small sensors, and be locked by restrictive software that may cost more than the hardware, is not open source, and may not be updated in the future.

The following two companies--collaborators--don't solve all of these issues. But to my eye, they may be taking large steps in the right direction. Both invite us to contact them and work together. If Canikon ever make such an offer, porcine aviation will be commonplace. So I’d like to place these folks on our radar screen.

The first company is “Konost,” which plans to offer photographic products based on CMOS sensors made by “CMOSIS,” the second company I’ll mention.

Konost plans to offer a range of camera bodies, including a 35mm full frame, an APS-C, a 1” sensor, and—most interesting to me—a "Konost Development Kit" for 35mm full frame, including an SDK (software development kit).

Interestingly, Konost says "At the heart of the Konost Camera is a 20.0mp 35mm Full Frame CMOS image sensor from CMOSIS. The CMV20000 is a high resolution, high dynamic range, and high speed sensor allowing us to achieve spectacular detailed images. With 16 LVDS channels capable of running at 480 Mbps, the CMV20000 can also record videos at 30fps at full resolution, giving the Konost Camera extended capabilities besides still photography. CMOSIS has also been excellent in providing documentation, reference designs, and customer support for our application."

"Zedboard Development Board—The Konost Prototype uses the Zedboard development kit to drive the massive image sensor. With an onboard Xilinx Zynq All-Programmable SoC/FPGA, we were able develop our own data and image algorithms, serial controls, protocols, and memory allocations, giving us full control and features of the CMV20000 image sensor. The Konost Prototype also uses the 7" Zed Touch Display providing live preview and user interface to the sensor. This low cost approach provides further flexibility for customization and future developments."

It’s nice to hear that CMOSIS is customer friendly. A list of their products is found here.

Neither CMOSIS nor Konost currently competes with Canikon in things like megapixel count. And I doubt that they will ever have the volume to be leading edge in such specifications. But if they are collaborative and supportive of shutterless bodies, some of us might be interested in working with them.

--Chris

TheLostVertex
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Post by TheLostVertex »

Coincidently, I have spent some time since a couple weeks ago reading data sheets on CMOSIS products for a few of the reasons you described. I first found out about their sensors from the open source video camera project, apertus. Since then I have had some ideas for building a much faster stacking solution. Of course these have only been initial ideas, as I have been busy working on some more conventional macro/micro solutions for myself. I had not come across Konost yet, but have look at some other machine vision companies.

So have you spoken with them yet about the type of application you wish to use it for?

jnowat
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Post by jnowat »

You are surely not alone. Thank you for the link in my previous post.

I'm wondering about their pricing. I haven't been able to find many other companies that are quick to reply- one even suggested that I go with something completely irrelevant... it was difficult communicating with them to say the least.

I'm very interested in learning more about how a communicative relationship with one of your mentioned companies could help me find such a device that I am searching for. I know what I need, but I also know I am not willing to soar above a few thousand dollars for basically a simplified sensor with a global shutter and external triggering capabilities. It's outrageous what some of these companies slap on their products price-wise. Though I understand that they target certain industries, I am not within that bubble.
Canon 6D
Thorlabs ITL200 tube
Mitutoyo M Plan Apo 2X & 5X
Stackshot 3X
One hell of a project

nielsgeode
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Post by nielsgeode »

jnowat wrote:You are surely not alone. Thank you for the link in my previous post.

I'm wondering about their pricing. I haven't been able to find many other companies that are quick to reply- one even suggested that I go with something completely irrelevant... it was difficult communicating with them to say the least.

I'm very interested in learning more about how a communicative relationship with one of your mentioned companies could help me find such a device that I am searching for. I know what I need, but I also know I am not willing to soar above a few thousand dollars for basically a simplified sensor with a global shutter and external triggering capabilities. It's outrageous what some of these companies slap on their products price-wise. Though I understand that they target certain industries, I am not within that bubble.
I do not know the situation in the USA, but here in Europe (Netherlands) Canon gives two years of warranty on its simple models (Rebel series in USA, xxxD series in Europe, Kiss X series in Japan). This also includes the shutter if it wears out within warranty, even if you have exceeded the rated shuttercount by *a lot*. I was told that there was a guy with a 1D X who was given a new sensor and a new shutter (for warranty) because he had more than a million clicks on it (within its warranty).

If this also holds for the region where you live, you could consider to just purchase a new Rebel, use it and claim a new shutter for warranty. Two years of continuous shooting and shutter replacements for $500 (?) is not a lot :D

AndrewC
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Post by AndrewC »

It would be good if they ever did it at a reasonable price but I can't see it happening. Better as suggested to go with a cheap DSLR or maybe an EVIL so you at least lose the mirror movement ?
rgds, Andrew

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Photo-DIY
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Post by Photo-DIY »

Chris S. wrote:...
Shutterless cameras do exist as dedicated instruments for microscopes and telescopes. But they tend to be expensive, use older-technology Kodak sensors or too-small sensors, and be locked by restrictive software that may cost more than the hardware, is not open source, and may not be updated in the future...
I am not sure which sensor size would fit your needs, but there is for example the CMOSIS CMV 4000 sensor with 11x11mm imager size.
This sensor is ready avialable in Machine Vision cameras.

I think even the older Truesense sensors could work well for microscopy, you do not have the CMOS advantages, but they are not bad either.
Machine Vision customers tend to use hard and software that is avialable for a very long time, so even the cameras are longer sold than customer photography cameras.

With GigE standard cameras Common Vision Blox should work for you.
Photo Tinkerers Heaven and Hell:
http://www.4photos.de/index-en.html
Some own work - and a bigger list of DIY links

nielsgeode
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Post by nielsgeode »

Some other *very* interesting thing for you is the new Magic Latern (nightly build). I discovered that it has a "silent picture" mode. It captures the live view and saves it as a DNG (not a CR2) without any physical movemtn of shutter or mirror. :D :D

It is still in beta stage, but for me the HD-version works (it then writes a DNG of 1920 x 1280 px). You can self-compile the silent module to get the option to write full resolution DNG's without shutter movement.

I was thinking of using it with the stackshot. The problem is that you take a silent picture by half pressing the shutter button and that the stackshot does not support a half-press of the shutter button on the camera. I haven't tested it yet, but I think this can be solved by programming a time lapse on magic lantern (e.g. a picture every 10 seconds) and start the stackshot with the shutter cable not attached to the camera. If they are synchronized it should give rail movement - picture - rail movement - ...

Check magiclantern.fm for this nice camera addon

Niels

pontop
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Post by pontop »

Not sure how the stackshot connects to the camera, but if it is through the standard remote control connector the half press feature is just a matter of switching two connectors in the cable. I have a cheap wireless remote control that came with a short connector cable from standard 2,5 mm stereo connector to the canon connector. I use that to let various contraptions trigger the camera - I just have to provide a 2.5 mm jack output. Pinout can be found for instance here. https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomheld/2900253681/
/Bo

pontop
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Post by pontop »

I have been using magic lantern for its automatic stacking feature and have been impatiently waiting for the full resolution silent module to make it to the nightly build. Should increase the lifetime of the shutter considerably. I tried about a month ago to do my own compilation, but must have done something wrong - nothing worked. Luckily I didn't brick my camera.....
I anyone here knows how to compile this thing i will happily test it on my 6D.

/Bo

TheLostVertex
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Post by TheLostVertex »

There is a thread where I have tested ML full resolution silent shooting mode. See http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/v ... hp?t=24926

I have been keeping up to date on that development branch. So far there has not been any progress on the two main draw backs to this feature, shutter speed and sensor readout. I will be sure to update that thread if I ever find anything new on that front. Right now it would be useable only in some very limited circumstances I think.

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