rough comparison view of Nikon D800E and Nikon 1 V1 with 10X

[ckatosmith]

Corn Pollen on a corn leaf from my garden. I know these are not great photos (apologies), again, I quickly wanted to see what using a CX sensor with a microscope objective might offer... Any comments welcome.

Very quick and dirty (no retouch, no sharpening, no adjustments, not great lighting or focus steps chosen) just to see how much more magnification (maybe I'm using the wrong terminology) I can get with the Nikon 1 V1.

I haven't figured out how to use StackShot with the 1 V1 yet, so I just pushed the Forward button between intervalometer shots. (no cable that goes from the older Nikon 1 V1 to StackShot that I'm aware of, though I'll give Cognisys a call) and used the intervalometer on the 1 V1.

I have excellent quality Nikon Teleconverters, but they wouldn't play with the bellows I have. I had bought the Tamron 2x TC for a Sigma lens I have that would not accept my newer Nikon TCs...

Nikon D800E + Tamron 2x TC + bellows + Fotodiox C-mount to Nikon F mount adapter + Nikon E Plan 10X, 20 stacked shots (Auto-Step mode)

Nikon 1 V1 + Tamron 2x TC + bellows + Fotodiox C-mount to Nikon F mount adapter + Nikon E Plan 10X, 40 stacked shots.

Cheap but powerful LED lighting from a
Snap-On unit from Home Depot. I'm encouraged enough to try and get better using the Nikon 1 V1.

Nikon D800E


Nikon 1 V1 (Nikon's first mirrorless camera)

[rjlittlefield]

I wanted to see what using a CX sensor with a microscope objective might offer...
just to see how much more magnification (maybe I'm using the wrong terminology) I can get with the Nikon 1 V1.

Perhaps it will be of some use if I talk through this...

It looks to me like you have the same optical magnification in both cases.

But the sensor on the 1 V1 is 2.72X smaller on each axis than the sensor on the D800E. As a result, it covers an area in the image -- and on the subject -- that is 2.72X smaller.

So, if you make the same size final print with both cameras, then the final print from the 1 V1 will have 2.72X higher magnification than the one from the D800E.

In some circles, people would look at this and say that the 1 V1 is giving 2.72X higher magnification. In other circles, people would say that the 1 V1 is just cropping to the center of the image, and you're getting the 2.72X higher magnification because you enlarge the crop more. Most discussions here at photomacrography.net would lean toward the second view.

If the 1 V1 were also revealing finer detail on subject, then a better claim could be made for its giving higher magnification. Unfortunately, that's not the case here. With the optics you're using, the D800E is almost certainly capable of capturing all the detail that's present in the optical image made by the objective. So, compared to the D800E, the 1 V1 is just throwing away over 5/6 of the available area without giving any extra detail in return. The only advantage I see to the 1 V1 in this case would be if it has less vibration than the D800E, when both cameras are used in their best way. I've never read exactly how the 1 V1 works, so I can't speak to that.

--Rik

[ckatosmith]

Does that mean if I can figure out how to make a D800E print 2.72x bigger, equal size cropped boxes (say 4x6) should show equal magnification, and one could then look to see which has better detail?

Edit: Then, the D800E should be better for details/IQ because of the larger sensor, more MP, and likely larger pixels. Tomorrow I will try shooting a coin with the same lens on each camera at the same distance (I'll just switch cameras from the same tripod). Then I will reduce the image size in Photoshop of the Nikon 1 V1 image by 2.7x so the coin at print size should match the coin of the D800E at print size. I've often wondered at this. Thanks for the push to check it out.

I would like to convince myself...


Thanks.

[rjlittlefield]

Does that mean if I can figure out how to make a D800E print 2.72x bigger, equal size cropped boxes (say 4x6) should show equal magnification, and one could then look to see which has better detail?

Yes, that's exactly the idea.

Then, the D800E should be better for details/IQ because of the larger sensor, more MP, and likely larger pixels.

Ah, welcome to the wonderful world of things that are tricky to think about.

What you've written would be true if you were using different optics on each camera, so as to utilize each entire sensor to image the same subject.

But that's not what the proposed test will do.

Instead, the proposed test will ignore most of the D800E's sensor data -- in fact almost 87% of it. The part you'll be comparing will come from an area that is only 13.2 x 8.8 mm, same as the 1 V1. That area on the D800E's sensor will contain only 4.8 megapixels, versus the 1 V1's 10.1 megapixels.

If the optical image is sufficiently sharp, say from a good lens running at f/5.6, then the optical image could out-resolve both sensors and in that case the smaller pixels of the 1 V1 would capture more detail over the same 13.2 x 8.8 mm area.

However, if I understand your 10X setup, the optical image in that case will be suffering so much from diffraction that it will not out-resolve either sensor. In that case the differences between the captured images will depend on second-order characteristics of the sensors and bodies, which I can't predict.

To get the best quality from any camera, the trick is to effectively utilize the entire sensor. With different size sensors, that means different optics. APS-C sized sensors are a natural fit for modern microscope objectives because they match the size of the image that the objective was designed to make, say 25 mm diameter going into the eyepiece. When the sensor is significantly bigger or smaller than that, then additional optics are needed to resize the image to match, again so as to utilize the entire sensor to capture the area of interest.

--Rik

[ckatosmith]

OK, I went back and resized the print size of the above (crummy) photos in Photoshop according to the 2.7x factor and I understand better what you mean.

Perhaps one value in smaller sensors is if, depending on one's arsenal of lenses, one is able to utilize a higher percentage of the sensor for the subject one wants to focus on (i.e., a 'lazy man's' way to crop).

Edited to add: the other reason I am interested in my Nikon 1 V1 is the electronic shutter option and the fact that it is mirrorless may be helpful re reduced vibrations vs my D800E. Currently, I have been using StackShot with the Config to '2 pics' for MLU, though I am starting to experiment with Mirror Delay function so I can go back to '1 pic', will post that question later in the appropriate forum).

I am also starting to do custom WB (I use ExpoDisc) and am delighted with the difference it can really make.

Thus, I am hopefully becoming a better photographer with time and really appreciative of your (and others) thoughtful and patient explanations when questions are asked that cause or induce a sigh...

Thanks.

[rjlittlefield]

Perhaps one value in smaller sensors is if, depending on one's arsenal of lenses, one is able to utilize a higher percentage of the sensor for the subject one wants to focus on (i.e., a 'lazy man's' way to crop).

Absolutely. This is a strong argument for using APS-C sensors with microscope objectives.

Thus, I am hopefully becoming a better photographer with time and really appreciative of your (and others) thoughtful and patient explanations when questions are asked that cause or induce a sigh...

You're very welcome -- I'm glad we can help.

--Rik