20x Finite Objective Suggestions

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ojd01
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20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by ojd01 »

Hello!

After creating a post last week and deliberating about a 10x objective - I am now considering taking a step forward to a 20x - as I feel I have too many objectives close together in magnification.

From your experiences what would be a good starting out 20x, finite, objective be?

Budget wise: up to £200-£250 probably sounds good, although if I have to pay slightly more, then that is okay. I am using an automatic focus rail and have a pretty stable setup to go below 10x, but I am learning as I go along!

Best Regards

Owen
Instagram: @ojd_photo

Chris S.
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by Chris S. »

ojd01 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:13 pm
From your experiences what would be a good starting out 20x, finite, objective be?
Owen,

The classic answer is the Nikon CF Plan 20/0.40 210/0 ELWD achromat, which has a working distance of 10.5mm. You can see it listed in the Nikon brochure here. There are two of them pictured in the fifth image down here, fifth file from the left.

I see that these are scarce on eBay at present. Don't confuse these with the many infinite LU objectives currently on offer.

--Chris S.

seta666
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by seta666 »

Same as 10x, Nikon bd plan 20/0.40 210/0, 100$ aprox
WD is 3mm or so, which is more than enough unless you need to photograph minerals inside rock cracks

And to save you from creating a new thread the bd plan 40/0.65 is also very good, 1mm WD aprox, again more than enough.

The tip of the bd plans is pointy and very thin, is very easy to get light in.

Chris S.
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by Chris S. »

seta666 wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:49 pm
WD is 3mm or so, which is more than enough unless you need to photograph minerals inside rock cracks
I would violently disagree that 3mm is "more than enough" working distance for most macro. True, an experienced photographer can make 3mm work sometimes for some subjects. But such shallow working distance severely restricts one's freedom to place and modify lighting. Light is our paint, and the way we place light conveys the shape, texture, and other characteristics of our subjects. At 3mm WD, reflected light can only come from a shallow angle to the side of the lens (unless through-the-lens lighting is used--rare for macro work, and itself bringing its own set of difficulties). Such shallow-angled, oblique light is a very limiting, and for many subjects, it is neither attractive nor illustrative.

A working distance of 1mm is even worse. Usable in limited cases, but a photographic straight jacket for a 20x macro objective.

--Chris S.

seta666
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by seta666 »

Chris S. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:02 pm
I would violently disagree that 3mm is "more than enough" working distance for most macro. True, an experienced photographer can make 3mm work sometimes for some subjects. ....
First, thanks for the nikon mplan brochure; never seen those M Fluor lenses around. Would not mind trying the 14x and 26x

To me WD is not the only factor that counts in getting light in, also is the lens tip shape. I have yet to find a subject I can not work with those two lenses; they work very well with ping pong ball difussers.

Here you have the CF 50/0.55 ELWD and to the left the CF BD 40 and 20 and to the right the BD plan 40 and 20; the angle the light needs to get in is basically the same

Image

I prefer 3mm wd with narrow conical tip than 10mm with a wide one. Also the CAs are worse on all ELWD lenses I have tried vs the normal BD ones. I ended up selling all of my ELWD objectives (the 60/0.70 ELWD is the best of them for me, still sold it), I still own the normal BDs

150$ buys you the BD plan 20 and 40; you need three times as much for the 20 and 40 ELWD; the 20 ELWD is good but I would not recommend the 40 ELWD to anyone, never liked it. The 60/0.70 ELWD is very good even with that purple fringing it shows and works very well with FF cameras but now that I work with an APS-C I was not really going to use it anymore.

I would buy the BD plans and I would save the difference for the mitutoyos when ready, which truly do make a difference because of their FOV coverage and excellent CA control, aside of their WD which is kind of compulsory for a lens with such a broad tip.

Why I do not recommend mitutoyos straight away?

- Because of how delicate they are, one mistake and you ruin them. You could go hunting birds with the BD plans and they would still work

- Many mitutoyos on the second hand market are defective because of this, it would be very difficult for a beginner to see the difference with nothing to compare them against. If you start with the nikons it would be easy to see, better performance than the nikon means the mitutoyo is OK

ojd01
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by ojd01 »

seta666 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:43 am
Chris S. wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:02 pm
I would violently disagree that 3mm is "more than enough" working distance for most macro. True, an experienced photographer can make 3mm work sometimes for some subjects. ....
First, thanks for the nikon mplan brochure; never seen those M Fluor lenses around. Would not mind trying the 14x and 26x

To me WD is not the only factor that counts in getting light in, also is the lens tip shape. I have yet to find a subject I can not work with those two lenses; they work very well with ping pong ball difussers.

Here you have the CF 50/0.55 ELWD and to the left the CF BD 40 and 20 and to the right the BD plan 40 and 20; the angle the light needs to get in is basically the same

Image

I prefer 3mm wd with narrow conical tip than 10mm with a wide one. Also the CAs are worse on all ELWD lenses I have tried vs the normal BD ones. I ended up selling all of my ELWD objectives (the 60/0.70 ELWD is the best of them for me, still sold it), I still own the normal BDs

150$ buys you the BD plan 20 and 40; you need three times as much for the 20 and 40 ELWD; the 20 ELWD is good but I would not recommend the 40 ELWD to anyone, never liked it. The 60/0.70 ELWD is very good even with that purple fringing it shows and works very well with FF cameras but now that I work with an APS-C I was not really going to use it anymore.

I would buy the BD plans and I would save the difference for the mitutoyos when ready, which truly do make a difference because of their FOV coverage and excellent CA control, aside of their WD which is kind of compulsory for a lens with such a broad tip.

Why I do not recommend mitutoyos straight away?

- Because of how delicate they are, one mistake and you ruin them. You could go hunting birds with the BD plans and they would still work

- Many mitutoyos on the second hand market are defective because of this, it would be very difficult for a beginner to see the difference with nothing to compare them against. If you start with the nikons it would be easy to see, better performance than the nikon means the mitutoyo is OK
Hello @Chris S. and @seta666,

Thank you both for very useful information! It has given me a lot to think about and decide what would be the best course of action.

I definitely think, based on my budget and possible future investments, the Nikon BD 20x would be the best call so I can possibly purchase a 40x too. The working distance of the BD plan should be enough for me and the images I produce and I can work out a lighting setup when it is needed. @seta666 - you mention ping pong balls - how do you set up those for the BD plan?

I am now watching eBay for a BD 20x and (possibly) 40x to pop up that I can purchase - but I will put a call out on here too!

Best Regards,

Owen
Instagram: @ojd_photo

seta666
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Location: Castellon, Spain

Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by seta666 »

As long as you understand their limitation I think you will like them; the 20X is very easy to work with, never found a subject I could not use it with. The BD40 a little more tricky to use and needs kind of flat subjects but is more than enough for insect wings and such. Subjects with long hairs may be problematic, but I would very seldom photograph a hairy subject with a NA 0.65 lens

You just have to cut ping pong ball semispheres, with a small hole for the lens side; like this Eric F picture shows

The soft light you get with them is of very good quality, you can play removing on side if you want it more directional; just practice. Paper cylinders are the other widely used option

Adalbert
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Re: 20x Finite Objective Suggestions

Post by Adalbert »

Hello Owen,

I strongly recommend the Mitutoyo M Plan Apo 20x / 0.42.
Can be used, scratched and delaminated.

I have had one and compared it
with the perfect NIKON Lu Plan 20x / 0.40 ELWD.

Unfortunately it is corrected to infinity :-(

Best,
ADi

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