Bellows for Fuji GFXs ii

[Foto67]

I replaced the initial bellows by the leather wide bellows. It was not possible to focus the 150 mm Lens with the initial bellows. I don't know why.

[Antal]

Focus IS really very sensitive and i shall improve the shift quasi mm After mm....to have a perfect focus.

Even with the sinar P3, wich may have a finer focus gear than the horseman, I alwas encountered this issu, you have to search the sweet spot within the gear play (backlash). I did some high volume watch photography wich needed focus stacking, so this ment a lot of loss in time and money.
I ended up by putting the rear stand on a motorized rail wich allows a theoric precision of 1µ in positionning. This is by far good enough and allows repeatability and efficient focus stacking.
I do not use any lenses shorter than 120mm, as I loose all liberty of movement with the two stands so near. You will also find out, that tilting will get very very sensitiv with short lenses.
You may rather use a tilt-shift lens directly on the body for short.

Wich 150mm do you use? I own only a Sironar digital 150mm wich is really ugly. I am not aware of a good option. Most of my work is done with a 180mm.

I am also still looking for an Copal 0 shutter with more than 5 blade iris. In fact I do not need the shutter but only the iris part of it as the shutter of the GFX is used. Do someone no of Copal 0 iris mount?

[Foto67]

Never Seen any copal shutter with more than 5 blades. The same about Seiko and Compur.
My 150 mm IS a Rodenstock Sironar N.
I'm waiting for the 180 mm.
What type of motorized rail do you use ? It seems interesting.
I'm also thinking about adapting a specific bellows for GFX on the Horseman rear element, then i'll save around 60 mm, and so enlarging the range of Lens with same T/S possibilities. Inspired by the Arca Universalis. May be a solution, i don't know.

[Antal]

My very first version was with a congisys stackshot. Then I switched to a igus W rail to get lower profile. In fact I did build the whole camera since I need to be as small as possible, reflection of the camera is a problem with watch photography. So front stand has ability to tilt 2 axis (no shift) and mesures 95x100mm (lensboard is 80x80mm, the smallest I could go with highperformance glass). So bearing and gearing fits in 15mm, wich was a huge challenge to be steady, precise and so slim. everything machined in my workshop.
The rear stand has shift ability in 2 axis ±20mm and no tilting.
Tilting rear is anyhow some pre digital heritage. And shifting front is more useful for adapting point of vue (I move the camera there for).
Steppermotor to drive focus. I still use the stackshot controller. Bellows custombellows UK.
The camera was first adapted to sinar digital back, then I switched to phase one and now GFX.

Are you happy with the 150 Sironar N? Is its resolving power good enough for modern cameras? Its a pre-digital lens...

[FotoChris]

Are you happy with the 150 Sironar N? Is its resolving power good enough for modern cameras? Its a pre-digital lens...

The lens has a high resolution but the aperture is the limiting factor. Wide open it's 5.6 and it'll probably require stopping down to f8.0-11.0 for peak performance - so for closeups with a 3micron sensor it's not really ideal

[Babylonia]

Are you happy with the 150 Sironar N? Is its resolving power good enough for modern cameras? Its a pre-digital lens...

About what lens are we talking?
A "normal" 150 Sironar N --- or --- APO 150 Sironar N (with a white coloured band around the front lens part).
That are two different lens designs.

The normal 150 Sironar N, definitely doesn't match today digital standards.
(Never was meant / optimised to use by a digital camera, just for use with 4x5 inch sheet film).

I do have two "normal" 150 Sironar N lenses. One with a Copal shutter. (The other by Sinar DB mount).
Using the one by a Copal shutter, on a "Nikon Bellows" and in my case the use of a Panasonic S1R camera, it do give a "woolly" sharpness.
And what FotoChris also states, at least you have to stop down to about F11 for better sharpness.
Further aperture closing, by diffraction limits sharpness shall deteriorate already.

However as for the purpose for usage on a big format camera / by a wide image circle.
It absolutely has an even spread quality when used on a small sensor camera, from corner to corner.
Even by some tilting and shift settings.

By today (AI) tools within a good RAW converter, you can improve the image by "perception" to a rather big amount.
As e.g. lifting values of clarity and structure, and some more high unsharp masking values.
So it still can be a nice option for further investigating the artistic possibilities of such a lens.

It also depends to "what" kind of subjects you are photographing, if you need "better" high quality optics, or can make use of "lesser".
For example, very precise 'technical' subjects such as watches as @Antal is doing, and use stacking techniques,
you will definitely benefit from the best quality lenses.

But I wonder if you would need that to the same extent with "food" photography (what @Foto67 is doing)?
It is much more about a taste "illusion" and human atmosphere that you want to evoke. Then the highest detail within images.
I also have my doubt if stacking techniques is of benefit when doing food photography?
As "food" is not a real "static" subject like watches, but is changing in shape and structure under changing temperature and humidity conditions.
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[FotoChris]

Are you happy with the 150 Sironar N? Is its resolving power good enough for modern cameras? Its a pre-digital lens...

About what lens are we talking?
A "normal" 150 Sironar N --- or --- APO 150 Sironar N (with a white coloured band around the front lens part).
That are two different lens designs.

The normal 150 Sironar N, definitely doesn't match today digital standards.
(Never was meant / optimised to use by a digital camera, just for use with 4x5 inch sheet film).

I do have two "normal" 150 Sironar N lenses. One with a Copal shutter. (The other by Sinar DB mount).
Using the one by a Copal shutter, on a "Nikon Bellows" and in my case the use of a Panasonic S1R camera, it do give a "woolly" sharpness.
And what FotoChris also states, at least you have to stop down to about F11 for better sharpness.
Further aperture closing, by diffraction limits sharpness shall deteriorate already.

However as for the purpose for usage on a big format camera / by a wide image circle.
It absolutely has an even spread quality when used on a small sensor camera, from corner to corner.
Even by some tilting and shift settings.

By today (AI) tools within a good RAW converter, you can improve the image by "perception" to a rather big amount.
As e.g. lifting values of clarity and structure, and some more high unsharp masking values.
So it still can be a nice option for further investigating the artistic possibilities of such a lens.
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The 150 Sironar N and 150mm APO Sironar N are identical lenses with different labels (as are all N and APO-N), Rodenstock just put the APO-label on the later production series to make them seem more attractive.

There are also 150mm APO-Sironar-S lenses wich are different with a larger image circle and incorporates ED glass.

[Babylonia]

OK, in that case, just a difference by labelling?? So you don't have that much benefit the one or the other copy.
Or it could be that later produced lenses still have some benefit by more tight tolerances used in later years?

As it comes to my "normal" 150 Sironar N copy. At least it doesn't have "APO" qualities.
Making images as for "neutral" metal subjects, you have to close the aperture down at least to F11 to have less annoying LoCA.
(Background out of focus areas ---> "greenish" ----- Foreground ---> "reddish" colour).
And still a little trace of it visible at F11. Better to close down even to F16, to get a satisfactory image neutrality.
(So also not usable when imaging of metal part watches. Better look to more "today" designed "real" APO lenses).

"Normally" those lenses in "that time" - e.g. MTF curves are given for aperture F22.

(And yes I know there are Sironar S lenses as well).
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[Antal]

I do agree with the statement on sharpness and resolution needs for different photographique domaines.

I do some food too. Here I search the creamy gradients of out-of-focus parts rather than maximum sharpness. Most of the largeformat lenses I tested (rodenstock sironar digital) are not my favourits: The out-of-focus part is very ugly. Even the incredible 180mm HR Digaron, I dont really like its OutofDOF.
And the maximum aperture too high f5.6. Even with a GFX you will not get the look most food photographers are looking for. Tilting can help to reduce DOF. For me the disadvantage of a view camera does be compensated by its benefits.
I really do love my 80mm 1.7 fujinon for this, the sigma 135 Art fits the gfx well or shorter the sigma 50mm Art.

Focus stacking for food is common practice: 5 shots wide open f/2 to extend the sharpenes and not compromising the the nice blur out of focus. But yes, you rather be quick.

[Babylonia]

I do some food too. Here I search the creamy gradients of out-of-focus parts rather than maximum sharpness. Most of the largeformat lenses I tested (rodenstock sironar digital) are not my favourits: The out-of-focus part is very ugly. Even the incredible 180mm HR Digaron, I dont really like its OutofDOF.

Yes, we have a comparable view in it. ;-)

Here some "quick and dirty" testing I did this afternoon, of the Sironar 150 N - as stated bad LoCA, and also ugly out of focus areas IMO.
(Kitchen LED light - auto white balance - exposure time set in such a way, by every change by aperture value
the "auto ISO" stays at the same value = ISO 160. 10 seconds auto delay before shot + electronic exposure).
Some 100% detail crops of the total image (just JPG), and reduced to 1000 pixels wide, so just a tiny bit less - about 90% detail crops.

Subject is a metal kitchen colander (upside down - not cleaned yet. As can be seen at the bottom).

Aperture F 5.6

Aperture F 8.0

Aperture F 11

Aperture F 16

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Focus stacking for food is common practice: 5 shots wide open f/2 to extend the sharpenes and not compromising the the nice blur out of focus. But yes, you rather be quick.

Only doing 5 shots, I can understand it can be done nicely (that can be done quick enough).
(I am also using some Sigma lenses - as e.g. 50mm Art DNG).
Not doing food any-more (in a very long time past I did). I am retired.
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[FotoChris]

I do agree with the statement on sharpness and resolution needs for different photographique domaines.

I do some food too. Here I search the creamy gradients of out-of-focus parts rather than maximum sharpness. Most of the largeformat lenses I tested (rodenstock sironar digital) are not my favourits: The out-of-focus part is very ugly. Even the incredible 180mm HR Digaron, I dont really like its OutofDOF.
And the maximum aperture too high f5.6. Even with a GFX you will not get the look most food photographers are looking for. Tilting can help to reduce DOF. For me the disadvantage of a view camera does be compensated by its benefits.
I really do love my 80mm 1.7 fujinon for this, the sigma 135 Art fits the gfx well or shorter the sigma 50mm Art.

Focus stacking for food is common practice: 5 shots wide open f/2 to extend the sharpenes and not compromising the the nice blur out of focus. But yes, you rather be quick.

That's because the 180mm HR Digaron isn't made for closeups, it's for infinity and up to 1:10 and all its nice MTF curves were made at 0,08x.
It's probably a somewhat modern-ish 6/4 design with modern coatings but that won't be able to keep up with something like a Sigma Art lens - mostly due to the floating elements.

[Foto67]

I'm using the 150 mm Sironar N and it IS true that there is not a long distance between the Lens and the item( around 100cm). The focus IS not easy to do but IS due to the Lens focal or to the bellows approach?
I try to joint a photo but it's around 9Mo and too much here ?

[Babylonia]

If I see your camera set-up within a previous message.
viewtopic.php?p=300903#p300903

As most “big format” camera’s are not designed for today more small digital image formats, high density small pixel sizes,
and by that the necessary very tight tolerances and fine pitch adjustments.

I think the problem of a coarse focus adjustment, is by the choice of using one or the other model big format camera approach itself.
One do have better fine adjustments than another. But in general “all” of those older big format camera’s do have to much coarse adjustments.
I doubt if a “Horseman” camera is good enough for this task?

@Antal already explained by his approach of using self build camera parts and using a Steppermotor to drive focus.
viewtopic.php?p=300933#p300933

All kinds of “older” second hand parts are already discussed more early, within this subject.
Maybe a good starting point “could be” the better micro spindle focus of the back standard of a “Swebo” camera.
As used e.g. By Jim Kasson
(See blue coloured turning knob of the spindle at the end of the Swebo camera by following web resource / pictures).

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/swebo-tc-1-oobe/
https://blog.kasson.com/wp-content/uplo ... .25.50.jpg

You can build up your own gear by very precise parts:
https://www.swebo.us/ultra-precision-ma ... 0-0005-mm/

But a complete setup becomes very big, heavy and “clumsy”, where you easily pass your goal for a more easy approach.
And relatively a costly approach - however more cheap than other vendors. You can buy these Swebo parts by e.g. AliExpress.

The most elegant and easy way I found is using a “tilt/shift” adapter. (A relatively inexpensive solution).
In combination by "old" Pentax 6x7 lenses. (For more close-up you shall need a Pentax macro tube as well).

Focusing by the own focusing ring of the lens itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac4n5_CxO3M
Stitching images: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKG9gVJ93Ck

Alternative tilt/shift adapter by Hartblei (Mamiya 67 lens):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJYf11BOKzU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg7BSal1ILw

Hartblei Focus Tilt + Focus Stack using GFX 100: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfT5kmGGlPc

Comparison: Hartblei Focus Tilt vs Fuji Focus Stack using GFX 100: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL_pfpWufDk
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[Foto67]

I didn't know Swebo. What is the value and quality vs F-Universalys from Arca ?

[Babylonia]

I didn't know Swebo. What is the value and quality vs F-Universalys from Arca ?

Well, as by selling points, (e.g. AliXpress v.s. Amazon) I guess "Swebo" is a Chinese (at least Asian) "sponsored" Chinese company.
(As many Chinese companies are sponsored by the Chinese government, to expand their market share world wide).
Arca is a European "old fashioned" by origin -Swiss- specialised company for some "ages", and by comparison, sell "expensive" products.
https://arca-swiss-usa.com/pages/about-arca-swiss

As by possibilities other companies offering you "NOW". Just compare these possibilities and what you have to pay for each solution.
But even more important, what each solution bring TO YO YOU, for your own photographic experience.

From a technical point of view compare the basics of how a camera system is constructed.
Original old-fashioned large format cameras often have their pivot points in the block at the bottom, at the height of the base bench.

Sinar was the first company to come up with an "arch" system, where pivot points are situated exactly / precisely within the film plane itself.
And "more or less" at the optical plane of the lens. (Changing by which lens is used).
Later the combination by a digital camera instead of sheet film, the pivot points are NOT situated at the sensor plane itself any-more.
So each base "turning" adjustment / movement, do need a new focus adjustment.

The example below, the axe of the pivot point is situated several cm "behind" the camera itself. Not within the sensor plane.

Whereby I suspect that the patents of these constructions expired some years ago, and now also can be used by other companies like Swebo.
https://blog.kasson.com/wp-content/uplo ... .25.50.jpg
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